Changing the Narrative on Suicide & Mental Health with Lisa Sugarman

[00:00:00] This podcast mentions suicide and may be triggering, so please listen accordingly. Hey there listeners, welcome to Shit That Goes On In Our Heads, the podcast where we normalize conversations around mental health. That's right. I'm Dirty Skittles and alongside my amazing co-host, you Rex, we are here to share stories and tips from our incredible guests.

[00:00:27] Each episode, we deep dive into struggles and triumphs of mental health, offering practical advice and heartfelt support. Because no one should feel alone in their journey. Join us as we break the stigma and build a community of understanding and compassion. Tune in and let's start talking about the shit that goes on in our heads. Three, two, one. Welcome back to another episode of Shit That Goes On Our Heads.

[00:00:55] I'm here with the amazing Dirty Skittles and today we have an amazing guest, Lisa. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. Welcome. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have been waiting all day for this moment. I love this. I'm serious. I'm being absolutely dead serious. You know I'm being serious. That's what scares me. I know. See, when she laughs, nobody can hear her. You see her laughing. I know, that's right. I didn't even pay attention to that. We can see her. Yes.

[00:01:25] You know, she's gonna fall off her chair. Yeah. Now she's fanning herself. See, this is what happens. And then I feel I need to narrate. Yeah, I'm glad one of us is gonna do it because it's too funny what we're seeing right now. You guys are jerks. I love you though. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. And, you know, Dirty Skittles didn't get to listen to the pre-interview because I don't think I recorded it. But, you know, my bad.

[00:01:54] Tell us about you. I can't wait. So, I don't even know where to start. Like, where's the jumping in point? So, I'm a lot of different things. I'm here just north of Boston. We were talking about this in the green room that I'm here in Salem in Massachusetts. I grew up in a teeny tiny little harbor town, Marblehead. Dirty Skittles knows it very well. It's her second favorite place in the world. And I have two daughters. I have two grown daughters. One lives four miles away. One lives 7,000 miles away in Japan.

[00:02:25] Married the guy I fell in love with in high school. And we've been together ever since. We're almost 32 years married. And I, as far as work is concerned, what I do involves a lot to do with suicide awareness and prevention, mental health awareness, mental well-being, grief, loss. I'm a mental health advocate. I'm a crisis counselor with the Trevor Project.

[00:02:50] I am a support group facilitator for survivors of suicide loss through Samaritans. I do a lot of work with a lot of different mental health platforms like American Foundation for Suicide Prevention and same here, Global. And I am the new founder of a brand spanking new site platform, whatever you want to call it, directory. It's called the Help Hub.

[00:03:17] And it's a place where you can find all the crisis support resources and support and tools and content from kind of the heart and the mind of a survivor of suicide loss. Yeah. That's who I am. That's what I do in the world. And just so happy to be here to have this conversation. Yeah. What drives that passion for you to do these things?

[00:03:42] So my story is a little unusual. So I'm a three-time suicide loss survivor. And those losses started when I was nine years old. My cousin took his life. He lived right up the street from me, very unexpectedly took his life. I lost my father a year later in 1978. I was 10. And I didn't learn that my father took his life until I was 45 years old. So I lost my dad twice in my life.

[00:04:11] Only a few years ago, the third person I lost was one of my closest childhood friends. We'd grown up close all the way through until we were in our 50s and he took his life very suddenly. So that's my why. I mean, having those kinds of losses that fall into that specific kind of bucket, like, you know, a loss is a traumatic and devastating thing.

[00:04:36] A suicide loss has so many different nuances that other types of losses just don't have. It doesn't make it any easier or any harder. It just is different, very different. And it's because of that, that my whole, I guess my whole work life just shifted. It was like night and day. Like one minute I was, you know, focused on the parenting world. You know, while my kids were young, I started writing parenting books. I was in that space. I was on lots of parenting platforms. That was kind of, that was my work.

[00:05:05] I was talking about work-life balance and, you know, raising kids and things like that. And then I just completely shut down for a few years after I found out my dad had actually taken his life. And when I kind of started to shake that off and come out of that, I was just somebody with a very different mission. I just, I wanted to either be the person that my dad needed, or I wanted to somehow pull together the resources that someone like my dad would have needed.

[00:05:35] And that just kind of became my passion. And that's what it's been ever since. Oh, how, how did you find out after all those years? You know, it was just a crazy circumstance. It was not like this big, wild, dramatic revelation. Do you, you know, like I didn't discover tapes or books or notes or it wasn't like that. I was like having lunch with my husband in my hometown of Marblehead.

[00:06:01] And we were just outside having lunch at a cafe and a cousin of mine came by, hadn't seen her for a while, for a long time. Cause she doesn't live full-time in my town. So I, she came by and she sat, she talked and her kids are a little bit older than our kids. So we were catching up like how are your kids, how are my kids. And in that conversation, just out of absolutely nowhere for no reason whatsoever that I could figure out.

[00:06:26] She asked me if either one of our girls who were like teens at the time, did either one of our girls have the same mental illness that my dad had? And I didn't know what the hell she was talking about. I had no idea what she was talking about. And my husband, Dave was like, you know, like side eye across the table. Like, what the is she talking about? And the conversation kind of came and went, I think I was just too stunned in that moment to really, I was just caught off guard. I didn't know what to say. And so I just kind of filed it away.

[00:06:56] And my mom and I are incredibly close. And I saw her, I think probably like the next day. And I didn't start like thinking the thoughts. I didn't start like, it didn't like unlock anything. I just, when I was with her the next time, all of a sudden, it just, I kind of blurted it out. We were talking about my dad, but in the context of that conversation, I just said, did dad ever experience any depression? And she said, yes. I said, so dad was depressed. She said, yes, at the end of his life.

[00:07:24] And before I even knew what happened, before I even knew the words were coming out of my mouth, I just had never consciously thought the thought. I said, did dad take his life? And she said, yes. And that just, in that split second, it just rewrote everything. Everything imploded. And it was like, I was, you know, I was 10 years old, all of a sudden, all over again. Having, you know, having my mother tell me that my dad was gone, but now it was a completely different narrative.

[00:07:51] And now I'm a grown woman married for 20 years at the time. I had two teenage kids at the time. And I just, I think everything just kind of stopped, you know? Yeah. You're grieving all over. Oh, for sure. Like from like day one, minute one, all over again. Oh. Yeah. It was, it was, it was a day. When you, when you found that out, did you start questioning things that were going on with your own mental health? Looking at your kids differently or your life differently?

[00:08:22] You know, that's a great question. And I appreciate you asking that because the funny thing is, I always have trouble articulating this whenever anybody kind of asks that. It's a strange thing. So I've, I make no secret of the fact that I'm an empath. I've always been an empath. I'm a highly sensitive person. That's just how I'm wired. So I feel all the feels and the vibrations. I feel yours. I feel mine. I feel the world. I've just always been like that. And at times in my life, it's been very, it's been a burden.

[00:08:50] It's been, it's like so much too much. Like you just can't shut it off. And I just wish I could be like a bitch and just shut it off sometimes and just not care, not be affected by it. But I can't, that's not how I'm wired. And it got to a point in my life where I, it wasn't that I was experiencing depression, although I have been depressed at times. It wasn't that I thought I had mental illness or questioned that. I just knew that I was wired differently.

[00:09:18] And the way that Dave and I always talk about it, picture like an electrical wire. You know how all electrical wires have a coating? And that keeps you, if you touch the wire, it keeps it insulated. So you're not going to get the current. I don't have any coating on my emotional wires. So I'm feeling everything all the time. And I knew that meant something about me, but I didn't know what, like, I didn't know what.

[00:09:44] And so to answer your question, the weird thing, as soon as I found out my dad had mental illness and that he had taken his life, the one thing it made me realize, don't ask me how I knew, I just knew, was that I didn't. Like, somehow it connected a dot for me in a way that I needed it to be connected because I was like, whatever it is that maybe I've inherited from him, because we all know that mental illness can be inherited.

[00:10:11] Whatever I inherited from him was not that version of his illness. I have an ability to feel things and to see things and to maybe articulate things in a certain way on a different level because I feel them so deeply. But I knew that I wasn't mentally ill and it was so cathartic. But at the same time, it was a crazy thing to feel grateful for because I just found out my dad had taken his life. So it was a whole bunch of shit all at once that was just hard to sift through, hard to navigate.

[00:10:41] But as far as my own mental health, I knew that I was OK when I found that out. And what I learned about my kids came later. I didn't talk about it. When I found out the truth, the only people who knew that I talked about it with for three years were my mom and Dave. I didn't talk about it with another soul. I didn't tell the girls. I didn't think that they were ready. I wasn't ready. It wasn't processed. I didn't even know like which direction I was going half the time.

[00:11:08] And it was because I decided that they needed to know what their inherited DNA was. It was important for them to know that by the time I got to a place of like being OK, like I accept that this is the truth now. This is what happened. And I just kind of got my bearings a little bit. We sat them down and I said, look, I need to talk to you guys about, you know, Papa Jimmy and let you know what I've discovered and let you know why. Because I always wanted them to know that they could. They could come to us. They could talk to each other. They could talk to their grandparents.

[00:11:38] They could see us a therapist. Just if anything ever came up for them, which it since has because they're grown women now and they both have struggled with anxiety and depression and both have gotten help for it and have just done incredible work on themselves as humans. That it makes me. I think that's the thing I'm proudest about as a mom. You know, it was all of this that happened with my father that unlocked all of that, which is just kind of the crazy irony. Yeah. How did you take care of yourself afterwards?

[00:12:07] Like, how did you grieve through that a second time? Um, I mean, like I said, in the beginning, it was just me and it was Dave. And I, you know, I was so grateful to be able to be there for my mom because for 35 years, she kept this secret. No one knew. She didn't, not a soul knew. She didn't go to therapy. She didn't have an outlet, a friend. She didn't go. There was no crisis line, nothing. So it was all her protecting me. Me.

[00:12:36] And I think just the fact that I could be there for her and have a hold space was, that was a big way that I took care of myself because I got to be there for her because of how she put herself aside for decades to be there for me. So it was us really having all sorts of incredible, we've had like one long conversation for 11 years. It hasn't stopped. We talk about it all the time in every possible way.

[00:13:02] She's been on podcasts with me, which has been just the most incredible experience. And, you know, I mean, other ways are just like the normal ways that I take care of myself. Like I have a pretty deep personal practice. I mean, I get up every day. I'm up super early. I'm up at five. I meditate. I practice yoga. I run. I lift weights. I journal every day. I'm outdoors as often as I possibly can be with my friends, family. That's, you know, those are the ways that I always take care of it.

[00:13:32] Those are like my non-negotiables every day. I can't imagine. I cannot imagine what your mom went through and then being able to talk about it after so long. Like, wow. Yeah. You'd have to know my mom to appreciate that she is the single most remarkable human you'll ever meet in your life. She's, first of all, she's like that big. She's teeny. You can put her in your pocket, which is great because I just pick her up and take her places.

[00:13:59] She's just the most content and most joyful human you'll ever meet. Oh. Yeah. She kind of shines through you because every time you and I talk, I feel that joy. I feel your humanness, right? We all have different ways of how we show up for people, but the way you show up is always with like open arms and a good heart and well-intentions. Same with dirty Skittles.

[00:14:26] Like, it's just, it's how you show up for people. And I think that's what makes a difference is how you show up. And I just think it's incredibly courageous for you to be open about it and talk about it and then dedicate, I believe, like the last 10 years to giving people the resources they need so that they don't think as suicide as the end all. Right? It's that there are other ways to get help.

[00:14:54] Same with, you know, 988. Just use that number. Believe me, it's truly a lifesaver. But I love that what you did with the Help Hub gives people that resource. And it's not just like a one and done. It is spread across every nationality, across the world, you know, everything. And just the amount of research and everything that you've done for that and for this cause and for this reason.

[00:15:23] And just deeply appreciate you saying all those things. And, you know, it's the same reason why you're doing what you're doing, why you're both doing what you're doing. Like, we're all elevating each other. We're all working toward the same thing. We're just trying to normalize the things that we've been taught not to be okay.

[00:15:47] And, you know, we all find our lane and we all find the way that, you know, we can do that best. And I just was talking the other night with Dave, with my husband about this, saying that, you know, I will do this forever. This is the thing, like, I found my thing. You know, I mean, I've always been a content creator. I've always been a writer in some capacity. But, like, doing this in this space for this reason, like, that's it. I'm in it. I'm in it now, you know, till the end.

[00:16:14] And it gives me so much joy. Like, I've always loved being of service. But this is, like, next level service. And I wake up every day like there are not enough hours. You guys know this. I mean, you guys operate the same way from the same place. But, like, there are not enough hours in the day. Thank God I'm a short sleeper. And I only sleep, like, two or three hours a night because I don't know. Like, I'm still trying to find more hours in my day.

[00:16:42] I mean, and my family's, like, ready to hit me in the head with a bat just to make me sleep. But I just, you know, when you find that thing that you want to do, you just want to do it. Yeah. Wow. I keep thinking about something that, like, G-Rex and I have talked about a bunch of times, which is, like, you never really know what somebody's going through. Because, like, the way you're describing your mom is, like, the most remarkable person. And I'm just, like, in this full time, right? Like, she was carrying something that you didn't know about either.

[00:17:10] So it's, like, it just goes to show, like, you never really know what somebody's going through. Yeah. And the fact that she was able to show up as her best self, regardless of what she was carrying with her is just... Yeah. She, you know, sometimes, I'm sure you all have this feeling. You both have this feeling. And anybody listening probably has this feeling. There are times when you can just kind of, like, step outside yourself. And you kind of watch aspects of your life or phases of your life. Like, kind of a highlight reel.

[00:17:38] And so when I think about my highlight reel with my mom, my mother went... She was 40 years old. She was a widow. She was working part-time at a nursing home up the street. At that time, she had not gone to college. Her family couldn't afford it. She was a straight A, high on a roll student. Couldn't go to college. And, you know, six months after my father died, she was still working at her job, taking care of me. My grandmother moved in.

[00:18:07] She was taking care of my grandmother. She went back to school nights for five years and got her degree at night. And, you know, when I hear people bitch and moan about, you know, what they have to deal with and not to ever minimize what anybody ever has to deal with. But the things that sometimes you hear people deal with, you're like, really? That's your problem? Like, you know, you don't want to minimize it. But at the same time, I'm thinking to myself, okay, my mom, you know,

[00:18:35] was a widow and, you know, caring for her elderly mom and all these things and dealing with the fact that my dad had taken his life and nobody in the world knew. She just did her thing. And she did it, you know, we all make choices. My mom just chose to, she put me first, always has, always will. That's where I get it. I do the same thing for my kids. And she just did all the things. And, like, I couldn't be prouder of her. You know, what she did.

[00:19:03] And she saved me. But without a doubt, like, I can feel like that emotion kind of filling me up right now. Because I think if I had ever known that my dad had taken his life at that time, the way that I felt about suicide as a little kid, I felt like it was a selfish thing. Not because anyone taught it to me, but it was just what I felt. If I ever knew my dad had taken his life, I don't think I'd be here. I don't know if I would have made it. Do you still think it to be a selfish thing?

[00:19:29] Because I hear people say that, like, and I don't know if that's just from, like, growing up and hearing it on TV, but I always heard it described as a selfish thing. But I don't think it is. No, first of all, it is a very common mindset. It's very common. Second of all, I don't know where it ever came from. I don't know where that belief system ever came from. I certainly was not from my parents because they never, ever spoke that way about suicide or about mental illness. But then again, like, who was talking about it in 1978 anyway?

[00:19:59] But that was just something that I just internalized myself. And it was after finding out about my father's suicide. And then after, you know, my children, my oldest daughter in particular, who started showing signs of some mental illness, you know, with some depression and anxiety shortly after that, I had a complete reversal on how I felt when I, and it was like a, it was like a night and day.

[00:20:25] It was like an instantaneous thing when I just thought of it in terms of like, it's an illness. You would never feel that way about someone who had cancer. You'd never feel that way about someone who had heart disease. You'd never feel that way about someone who died in a car crash. Why are we saying that somebody with mental illness should be stigmatized? Yeah. And it just kind of evaporated like almost overnight for me. Yeah.

[00:20:49] I think that's such a powerful message too, because I do think that not everybody understands it that way, but that very much is the way it is. It's yeah. That's why we have to change the language that we use. I mean, that's why we, you know, we can't keep saying committed suicide. We can't be afraid of saying the word suicide. You know, you've got platforms like, you know, not to throw shade at places like TikTok or

[00:21:16] any of these other social media platforms, but it's like, you're telling people they can't say the word suicide. So no wonder it stays, you know, stigmatized, things like that. Yeah. I think we have a long way to go, but I think we've made a lot of good progress the last few years on people's mindset. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, as much as we talk about mental health and taking care of yourself and all of that stuff, it should be something that we can talk about too, because I mean, I've never

[00:21:42] been in that scenario myself, but I do struggle with depression and I know how dark it can get sometimes. And I, I do remember recently thinking like, I can't imagine how hard it is for those that feel that is their route, right? That is just what we're going to have to do because I'm dealing with so much in that moment, you know, and I do think that is a topic that has to be talked about more because just when

[00:22:08] you start to feel alone and you hear other people with that same story, you're not so alone anymore. That's it. That's it right there. One hundred percent. And I can tell you from my own experience, right? It is terrifying. In that very moment, it is absolutely terrifying. And if I hadn't had that number to call, I may not have been here. Right.

[00:22:35] And like the things that go through your head when you're thinking about contemplating suicide, there's a lot that goes into that. Like, fuck, what is Cheryl going to think? What's my family going to think? You know, how are people going to look at me? How can I even express what the hell is going on with me? And it's a terrifying place to be. But there was that glimmer, right? I don't know what it was. It was that glimmer that things could get better. And I made that phone call. And because of 988, I'm alive today.

[00:23:05] Without them, who knows what would have happened? But I can certainly feel for the people that are going through it. And I want to change the narrative about how we talk about mental health. Because it is a huge problem in this world today. And the more we talk about it, the more we normalize it. The same with suicide. It's okay to say the word. Yeah. Right?

[00:23:32] And when people, when somebody does take their own life, sometimes it's not a selfish thing. They just didn't have the resources they needed. To get to that next minute. Or that next hour. Or that next day. It's tough. And as a community, as a world, we need to change that narrative. I couldn't agree more.

[00:24:01] I think people, I mean, speaking as someone who's on the lifelines, taking these calls every day. People, we're so hijacked by mental illness. You're not in a place emotionally when you're in that low place. You're not in a place where you can think clearly and think rationally and make good sound decisions. Because your sensibilities are getting hijacked. You can't process.

[00:24:31] You just don't want to be in pain. That's it. You're not thinking about the people you love. You're not thinking about your job or your reputation or who's going to grieve for you or what happens after. You're just like, get me out of this place of pain and that's it. And so I think what you're saying is so true about people forget that there's another side. You won't always feel the way you feel right now.

[00:24:58] As low and shitty as that feeling is, you will not always feel that way. Yeah. And that's hard to remember, right? It's weird because something that brings me comfort when I'm feeling very overwhelmed is knowing that everything is temporary and nothing is permanent. But even though that brings me comfort, knowing that I struggle with depression, there are times where it doesn't feel like it, right? Like it feels like, how can I possibly, how can this possibly be temporary?

[00:25:28] It's so heavy. But I think that's where hearing the conversations and like how G-Rex had the resource, like having at least have heard it before, you know, knowing that it's not just you or like you're not alone in that moment, feeling that way that other people have felt this way and have been able to move forward and not end it and make a permanent, you know, move on something temporary.

[00:25:57] And for people that are listening, I mean, if you know somebody or if it's yourself that's going through something like that, pick up the phone or text 988. I swear they will help you. They were the most, it was the most compassionate woman I've ever spoken to in my life. You gave me a sense of hope, right? I just want people to know that life is worth living.

[00:26:25] You know, I've been in therapy now for almost two, it'll be two years in a couple of weeks. Life on this side of depression is a thousand times better than it was on Christmas Day 2022. A thousand times better. I wouldn't have anything that I have now. And I was willing to put in the work. There's no easy button. Thank God. It's true. Yeah.

[00:26:50] There's no easy button, but if you're willing to put in the work and find out what's going to work for you, whether it's medication or therapy or your closest friend or whatever, find those people. Yeah, it's true. And just to kind of piggyback on that, there are a lot of people out there who don't have a support system, who don't have family, who don't have a spouse, who don't have a partner, who don't have kids, who don't have a community.

[00:27:17] Like we, on the Trevor Lifeline for the Trevor Project where I volunteer, we have a lot of people who we call familiar voices because they call every day. Sometimes multiple times a day, they'll call. And these are people who may not be in active crisis in the way that people think of crisis lifelines. Like they're not calling because they're suicidal.

[00:27:40] They're calling because they don't have anybody else to reach out to in their life, just to have a conversation, just to tell what's on their mind, just to let somebody know they're okay or they're not okay. And so I think people need to remember that even if you think you're absolutely alone, there's nobody that you can turn to or reach out to. There is always someone.

[00:28:06] You may not have the family or the community that you wish that you had in this moment, but you can pick up the phone, do exactly what G-Rex said, call 988 or call Samaritans or call the National Alliance on Mental Illness. Or call the Trevor Project or text the Crisis Text Line. There are so many outlets where you can turn and you're not alone. You're not alone.

[00:28:33] And people have the resources that you may need to get you out of the place you're in. And people need to remember, too, that they are loved, they're wanted, they're needed. Things just keep circling back in my head. I have to give the Help Hub credit, though. About two weeks ago, I woke up three days in a row with panic attacks, like debilitating panic attacks, something I'd never felt before in my life.

[00:29:01] I went out to your site and I found some breathing exercises that kind of helped me until I could get to my therapist, right? So the resources that you have out there are super helpful, like 100% helpful, not just for grief support, but just day-to-day mental shit that goes on in our heads. So you have no idea how, like, beyond grateful I am to know that happened. I mean, that's the whole point.

[00:29:31] That's it. Just to have a place where you can go, no matter who you are, no matter what you're dealing with, no matter what community you come from, what socioeconomic status you have or don't have. Like, that was the point. Like, I'm just so grateful that you could go there and get what you needed in that moment. Like, that right there makes every bit of whatever went into creating this worth it, you know, a thousand times over. And that's the impetus for this site.

[00:29:59] I mean, again, as somebody who, you know, spends all of my time in this space and connected to all these organizations, like, you know, everyone in these organizations has resource pages. Some are bigger, some are smaller. What I started recognizing as I was trying to build my own for my own website was like, okay, everybody's circulating the same resources. And not that's a bad thing. It's a great thing.

[00:30:26] But what about if you're part of the BIPOC community? Or what about, what if you're part of the queer community? Or what if you're part of the Latinx community? Or the AAPI community? Or you're someone who's elderly? Or, you know, you're not in this country. Like, we all experience the same things, but we all experience them in a very different way, depending on who we are and where we come from. But there was no one place that I ever found. I just couldn't find it.

[00:30:53] That existed where anybody from any of those places could find what they wanted in one place. So I made the place. And I continue to keep building it and refining it. And, you know, I have messaging on the Help Hub that says, if you don't see a resource that you know about that you think should be on here, please let me know. And people have reached out to me. I can't even tell you how many people. Which, again, just like, you know, makes my heart want to explode.

[00:31:21] Because it just means that, you know, I'm one person. I can't know everything that needs to be in there. So it's nice to be able to draw on the people who are using it to know that we're continuing to make it better. I love this. I love you so much. And I love everything that you're doing and that we're all doing, right?

[00:31:48] We're just, we're here to open people's eyes and ears to what's going on in this world. And let people know that they're not alone. You're never alone, ever. But I also love the fact that you have international numbers on there. Because over the last, I'm going to say, probably four years, those numbers have been starting to pop up more and more frequently, which makes my heart happy.

[00:32:14] I will tell you, in the last two weeks, here in the state of New York, I've seen commercials for 988. And I will tell you that in the past year, probably hadn't seen one commercial. I've now started seeing them a lot more since Thanksgiving up until now. And that warms my heart. I told you when I went into that store, I didn't know about 988 until I learned it from you.

[00:32:43] And when I went into that store that day and I saw shirts and sweatshirts that said 988, you're not alone. I was like, holy shit. Yeah. That's amazing. It's happening. Yep. Yep. We've had a big advertising campaign here within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts where they're pushing 988. It's on buses. It's in train stations. It's, you know, on all of our, you know, our TV programming. And it's amazing. It's, you know, little by little, it's getting out there.

[00:33:13] And I felt like, you know, I didn't want to just make this platform, the help hub, something for those of us who are here in this country. Like we're in a virtual world. It's a very small world now that we live in. And like I said, a few minutes ago, we're all dealing with the same stuff, just with a different language or maybe through a different religion or maybe on a different continent. But we're still dealing with the same stuff. So I tried to find and curate.

[00:33:40] I think there are like, I think there are, I think I have like 175 different countries on the list on the help hub where you could be in Uganda and look it up and find your crisis number in Uganda or in Finland or in the UK or wherever you may be in the world. And I just think it's so important. Like that one thing, whatever your version of 988 is, like that can be the difference between someone.

[00:34:08] I don't want to put it in these blunt terms, but we kind of need to. It could be the difference between somebody living and dying. And I mean, G-Rex knows that. She knows that. And you're like the poster child for that because it was because of that you're sitting here right now. And I don't think we need, you know, a stronger example than that. Yeah. That's what my friends say. They're like, it could be the difference between today and living tomorrow. Absolutely. Like, yeah. Yep. 100%.

[00:34:34] And, you know, if you had asked five years ago if the podcast was in our wheelhouse, no. But I had, you know, a mental breakdown. And I'm so thankful that I get to do this with Dirty Skittles. You know, we're out there changing lives every day. You know, one conversation at a time, one guest at a time. And we broached so many different topics. And, you know, it's kind of like free therapy for me too.

[00:35:02] Even though I still see my therapist twice, I see them twice a month now. Two weeks ago, three weeks ago, I saw them seven times in a 10-day period. But, you know, trying to articulate what I want to say. I'm grateful that we get to do this and that we have this medium. Because, like you said, there are some people that don't have a community, don't have kids, don't have anybody to talk to.

[00:35:33] And the fact that we can talk openly about it, mental health and suicide, and share these resources. We get to help save those lives. And we get to open people's eyes. So, like when we post out to LinkedIn or Instagram, I'm more focused on LinkedIn right now because there's a lot of companies that are focusing a little bit more on mental health now, which makes me happy. But because 10 years ago, that was not a thing.

[00:36:04] But getting these resources out to those employees also, right? Because we hear on the news, you know, a couple of times a month where somebody actually committed suicide at work, right? Maybe if that company had those mental resources in place to help their employees would actually help benefit not only the employer, but the employee, right?

[00:36:33] And so just making it way more open for people. And for me, you know, I'm 61. When I was growing up, we did not talk about mental health. Not even a teeny tiny bit. Now, apparently, I can't shut up about it. And I'm okay with that. I feel the same way. I mean, I'm not far behind you. I'm 56 years old.

[00:36:55] And what I learned through therapy, because a few years ago, two years ago, I think, I went back to therapy after, God, like 30-something years away from it. You know, when I took a gap year, when I was in college, before gap years were even a thing, I went to a therapist just to talk about, you know, what I don't know what I'm going to do with my life. I'm not quite sure. It was nothing related to my dad, except for the fact that I had lost my dad to a heart attack, or that's what I was told.

[00:37:24] But now I went back for me. Now I went back to kind of deconstruct everything that has gone on and be able to process it. And one of the interesting things that I just learned, we just started talking about it this way this summer. And I never, it never dawned on me. First of all, I never realized that I was a trauma survivor. I had no idea. And even just losing your parent at a young age, forget about the cause, just losing your parent. I never identified as a trauma survivor. And then all of a sudden, I lost my dad to suicide.

[00:37:53] So now all of a sudden, it's reinforced all over again. But being in therapy, I realized that I never grieved my dad's death when I was 10 years old. And I had no concept of that until my therapist asked me, like, what do people do to help you through that? Like, you gotta understand, we've talked about my mom already today. You know my mom is absolutely just next level amazing. I mean, present, loving, supportive, all the ways. My grandmother was the same way. We all lived together.

[00:38:23] But nobody was coming up and asking me, like, are you okay? Do you want to talk? What are you feeling? That didn't happen until I was 56 years old. Or 50, you know, in my 50s. You know, by us coming on here and like G-Rex and I and you all talking about the fact that, like, that's normal. That's necessary. That's a part of your self-care. That's beneficial. Like, we're normalizing that.

[00:38:50] Us doing that and what you guys do, you know, the brilliance that is shit that goes on in our head is that the two of you are out there just normalizing the living shit out of everything that is weighing everybody. So we're all going through the same stuff just under a different roof. And you're out there talking about it in a way that makes it safe to talk about it. You know, it's just, it's beautiful to see the work that you're both doing and, you know, the impact that you're making.

[00:39:19] I follow, you're not, I binge watch and I binge listen. I'm on the treadmill listening to you guys now. The back episodes. And it's, you know, it's powerful and it's important and it's changing lives. If the day you fall off the treadmill after listening to us, I don't want to hear it. I will sue you. Now we need to have a message after. Disclaimer. Yeah, disclaimer before you take a show. Do not do physical activity and listen to the show.

[00:39:48] We are not CEL viable for anything. All right. So I have a couple of questions for you. Okay. Today, what do you do for self-love and self-care now? Now, I mean, I do the same things that, you know, we spoke about a little earlier in terms of like self-care practices. That is, you know, that's kind of my baseline.

[00:40:14] I do all of those things on the regular because I need to move my body. I need to journal so that I get what's in my head, out of my head and into a place that helps me process. I think, honestly, like one of the things that I do now that we didn't talk about that I never, ever used to do was to maintain boundaries. I have never, I never say no, almost never, ever say no, which can be a good and a bad thing.

[00:40:41] But what I've learned is that when you're constantly saying yes to everybody else, you're not taking yourself into consideration. You're not giving yourself, you're saying no to you and you're maybe denying or avoiding what you might be needing for yourself. I've worked really hard the last couple of years to really prioritize what I need.

[00:41:07] Like, you know, if I maybe can't do something for someone that I would love to be able to do, but maybe I don't have the time or I don't have the capacity. Or maybe sometimes I just like don't want to because it's going to be really like maybe too emotional. I never used to say no. And now I actually do. And that has been, I think, one of the biggest areas where I think I've grown myself. I know my kids see it. I know my husband sees it. I know they're incredibly proud of it.

[00:41:36] I'm incredibly proud of it. And it's taken a lot of work because it's not my nature to do that. But I feel a lot freer. I feel a lot more balanced and centered. And I've realized, like, you take on this mentality, what I did, where it's like, well, I have to be there to help. I want half, like, if I'm not, who's going to be there if I don't? And the truth of it is people will figure it out. Like, if I can't help, there will be someone else who can help.

[00:42:07] And, you know, I have to keep reinforcing that. I have to keep reminding myself of that. But that's a big thing that I've done for myself in recent years to really care for myself. Just kind of, like, honor where I am. The biggest thing that I do now is just, like, I'm in my feels. Whatever my feels are, I'm just, I'm there. If I'm low, if I'm, like, high or, you know, maybe a little kind of ambivalent, I just, I let myself ride it. I'm just, like, kind of surfing all the time, you know.

[00:42:35] I seriously, like, I mean, you know, it's a silly image, but it's the truth. I just kind of, I just kind of surf the wave wherever it goes. I just kind of try and stay on the board. I was going to say, you stay on the board. And if I don't, then I crawl back on. Yeah. You know. If me, I'd be still trying to crawl onto the board. I haven't left the shore yet. I'm still, I'm back there with the snacks and the umbrellas, guys. That's a good place to be, too. Trust me. Believe me. All right.

[00:43:03] I have another question, and I think Dirty Skittles has a question. What is your favorite word? My favorite word is impact. I love the word impact. I have, I'm going to show you. I never show this. No one ever asks me. The first person that's ever asked me that. I have a bracelet on my wrist with a word, and the word is impact.

[00:43:28] Because I feel like we all have the capacity to make an impact in this world. We're not alone. We're not alone on this planet. We're not supposed to be alone. We're not supposed to go through life alone. Which means that we are supposed to be able to, I think, support and reassure and love each other. And part of the way we do that is to make an impact.

[00:43:56] Or part of the way I believe we should do that is by making an impact in whatever capacity we have the ability to do it. And I just, I found my sweet spot. And this is the place where I believe I, my lived experience and, you know, what I've gone through in my life has to have a purpose. Like, it has to have a purpose. So, that's my word sign. And I just want to keep making that impact. Okay. So, now, what's your least favorite word? Wow.

[00:44:25] That one, I wasn't prepared. I wasn't prepared for either one, but I definitely wasn't prepared. I think the word butt. I don't like the word butt. Because it means... Not like... Everything is easy. Oh, no. I like butts. I can't lie. No. The word B-U-T. I feel like when we say that, like when you apologize, I'm so sorry. But... Yeah. I really want to do that. Yeah, I'm super, super pumped. But...

[00:44:52] You know, I just feel like it just strips away whatever you said before you said the word butt. So, I try not to use it. So, if I say the word butt, I will give you 25 cents. Everybody rewind. No, I'm just kidding. Going forward. Yeah. Going forward. Okay, yes. Don't try and scam me, 30 Skittles. Okay. 30 Skittles. Love it. Way to go. Not my first rodeo. We were all thinking it. We were all thinking it. It's not my first rodeo kid. Love it.

[00:45:22] All right. What do you got? If you can go back in time to give yourself some advice. Oh, boy. What would you say to yourself? And how old are you when you go back in time? I am 10 years old. Oh, man. I will probably just... I don't usually get emotional. I'm such a highly emotional person. But I have this weird capacity to not be emotional when I'm on podcast interviews. But I just felt the wave just like crash. Right? It's good. It's good. I'm in it.

[00:45:49] So, I would tell myself to be exactly who you are and what you are, no matter what you think you should be or should do or should think. Be who you are to your core. And don't worry about what that means for anybody else because it doesn't matter to anybody else.

[00:46:19] That's what I would say. Love that. Thank you. And I did not use the word but a single time. No, you did not. To date, what would be the hardest lesson you think you've learned? That the people we love the most will not always be here. And I struggle with that every single day. I really do. Because as someone who learned way too intimately at way too young of an age what it means to lose people that I love.

[00:46:48] Forget about the people I've lost to suicide. That's a whole, that's its own bucket. I've lost grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, friends. So, I've been accompanied by grief my whole life. And it's a strange companion to have. And it makes you really hyper aware. At least it makes me really hyper aware of the fragility of life.

[00:47:14] And that I'm always the one who tries to be super present all the time. Because I'm very aware that things change. And that no matter how much love we have for someone or something, it will not always be here. Which is why we need to be as super hyper present as we possibly can be in these moments.

[00:47:38] And to tell the people that we love, why we love them, and that we love them as often as we can. Beautiful. That was absolutely beautiful. Can you tell me or tell our listeners where they can find the Help Hub? It would be my absolute pleasure. Because I haven't really been able to do this. It's so brand new. We just kind of launched it last month.

[00:48:05] So, you can find the Help Hub by going to thehelphub.co. And I just launched an Instagram page, thehelphub.co. You can find every single thing that I do personally. All the books I've written. All the content. I write a column called We Are Who We Are here in Boston. I have a YouTube series called The Suicide Survivor Series. That all of that stuff funnels through the Help Hub.

[00:48:33] You can find my story. You can find every interview I've ever done. I have a whole huge toolkit section within the Help Hub. It has everything from infographics to printable, downloadable, shareable documents. Like if someone is struggling and you don't know what to do, this will give you the language to talk to someone. If you're having a grief attack and you don't know how to deal with it, this will explain what it is, what to do, how to handle it. Think tools like that.

[00:49:03] So, everything is all at thehelphub.co. Oh my God. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on. That was absolutely the best part of my day. Hi, all. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I'm G-Rex. And I'm Dirty Skittles. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. We'd love to listen to your feedback. We can't do this without you guys. It's okay to be not okay.

[00:49:33] Just make sure you're talking to someone.