In this powerful season opener, we welcome Heather Grunkemeier, a dedicated advocate for trust, safety, and mental health. Heather's journey began in 2017 when she discovered her passion for making technology products safer, eventually leading her to work with global brands, including Expedia and Rover. In this episode, Heather shares her personal story of resilience, the struggles she faced in her career, and how she now advocates for mindfulness to manage stress and improve well-being.
Meet Our Guest - Heather GrunkemeierHeather has spent years developing strategies that enhance trust and safety while achieving business goals. As the former head of Trust and Safety Strategy at Rover, Heather worked with cross-functional teams to prioritize risks and develop policies that build customer trust. Her expertise in handling sensitive situations, such as preventing harm on digital platforms, shows her unwavering commitment to making the world safer.
Today, Heather emphasizes the importance of mental health, especially for professionals in high-stress roles like trust and safety. Through her personal experiences, Heather advocates mindfulness to manage stress, find inner peace, and build resilience. Her passion for sharing these insights is driven by her belief that mental health awareness is critical in today's world.
Topics Covered:- Heather's career journey in the tech industry and her transition to trust and safety.
- The mental health challenges she faced while navigating high-pressure roles.
- The personal tragedy that led her to reevaluate her priorities.
- How mindfulness has transformed Heather's approach to life and work.
- Practical advice on building resilience in the face of professional and personal struggles.
- Website: https://twinkle.llc/
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/heather.grunkemeier/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-grunkemeier-823866/
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health issues, reach out to the crisis hotline in your area. It's OK not to be OK—make sure you're talking to someone.
- United States: Call or text 988 | https://988lifeline.org/talk-to-someone-now/
- Canada: Call or text 988 | https://988.ca/
- Worldwide: Find help | https://findahelpline.com/
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Audio Editing by NJz Audio.
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Hey there, listeners. Welcome to Shit That Goes Under Our Heads,
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the podcast where we normalize conversations around mental health.
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That's right. I'm Dirty Skittles, and alongside my amazing co-host,
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you, Rex, we are here to share stories and tips from our incredible guests.
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Each episode, we deep dive into struggles and triumphs of mental health,
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offering practical advice and heartfelt support. work. Because no one should
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feel alone in their journey.
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Join us as we break the stigma and build a community of understanding and compassion.
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Tune in and let's start talking about the shit that goes on in our heads.
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Three, two, one. Welcome back to another episode of shit that goes on our heads.
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I'm G-Rex and I'm here with my amazing co-host, Dirty Skittles.
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And today we We have an incredible guest, and her name is Heather.
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Welcome, Heather. I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you for having me.
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Welcome, welcome. Where are you at? You're sitting in the next place.
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Yeah, I'm just north of Seattle in a little town called Snohomish.
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It's about 8 people. It's where I grew up. And I moved back here kind of crazy.
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I lived in London and Singapore for about five years combined. Yeah.
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Went all the way around the world, came back to my little town. And I love it.
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Wow. My life is now like a two-mile radius.
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It's just, it's incredible how if you just kind of let your path take you,
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you end up in places you just would never dreamed of being. And I love it here so much.
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What took you out to London and Singapore?
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Yeah, I worked at Expedia for 15 years. I didn't go to college.
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I was a horse trainer. That was my first idea.
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And then a series of events led me to Expedia. I've always wanted to just enjoy
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my day. I've never thought of work being like part of your day.
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And then the other part of your day is not work. It's just like your day.
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And I wanted to work somewhere that I liked. And everyone told me Expedia was a great place to work.
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So I took a temp data entry job there.
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I just wanted to be somewhere nice with nice people. Yeah.
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And then I just grew this career and ended up being a director of product strategy.
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Went in Singapore and did the whole thing of arrived at a career.
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And yeah, it was wonderful. wonderful like so cool into like
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53 countries and yeah I know well I
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still like I'm wondering my life like was that my life it feels like that was
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a movie but yeah you know what I mean yeah now I don't I'm like in a two mile
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radius I don't leave like literally a little you're happy you're happy there
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right coming back I'm the most peaceful I've ever been absolutely.
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What do you think that's about? Do you think it's just about being back to somewhere that you grew up or?
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Well, the past year and a half have been the best year and a half of my life.
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And I chose to prioritize inner peace as my number one priority.
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And that has been what I have chosen to prioritize.
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And that means a lot of things around in my life have changed as I just chose
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to make that the priority and let go of so many things that are out of my control.
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And just really focus on what I can control. And that's my attitude and my effort.
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That literally was my first question. Like, what does inner peace mean to you?
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But you just answered it. Because I mean, it's different, right?
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Everybody has something that they're, I guess, running towards, right, Shira?
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Yeah, running towards. It's sometimes running away from, but more so now like
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running towards or just living for that moment, right?
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If bookie taught us anything, live for the moment, like make those moments count.
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Yeah. I mean, one of the things I try to embrace every day is this could be
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the last day of my life, you know, for real, let's make it, let's make it great.
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Not particularly as helpful when I'm feeling anxiety or lower levels of energy,
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stress and fear and those sorts of things.
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Just it's going to be my last day. What are we going to do with it?
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Yeah. And I think one of the slight slight changes I've made that has been exponentially
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impactful is instead of saying, I want this, or I hope I get that,
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or this is what I'd like to see.
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I just slightly changed my words around that of, I like the idea of,
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I like the idea of this unfolding. Because as that unfolds, I may be like,
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oh, shoot, that isn't what I expected.
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So then when it unfolds, I can say, oh, I kind of like the idea of that now.
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And that's actually a big part of today for me being here today.
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There were some other potential mechanisms whereby I could share my story.
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And actually, this, I believe, is the perfect format. So those did not unfold
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over the past year and a half, and this has.
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And I think this is the best
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possible way for me to take my first step in
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sharing my story and it's it's big for me to take this step I don't know the
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impacts of doing so from a frankly a career perspective I think it's that doesn't
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matter though it doesn't matter because this is step I'm taking and I like the
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idea of it and we'll see where it goes from here well first thanks
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for letting us be the audience you share it with first yeah
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that's huge that's an honor and it's a
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super safe space right like we it's
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just me and 30 skittles and you and you know
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what we're just here to make the world a better place isn't that
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the truth i know i was talking with a friend about this and she said what are
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your goals like where are you going on here and i said i just want the world
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to be safer and in any way i can share the things i've embraced in the past
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year and a half to find peace and hope that helps other folks that's like rad like yeah that's rad so.
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So, yes, I worked at... Maybe I'll just get into my story real quick. Yeah, that'd be fine.
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Cool. Yeah. I experienced 15 years. I was in product management for most of that.
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And so product managers, we innovate, we build technologies.
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There was a book we all read in 2012 called Hooked by Nir Eyal.
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And it was all around how to unlock dopamine in the user's brains to get them
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hooked on your products and grow them.
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And it was like the coolest thing since sliced bread. I remember reading that
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book and thinking, oh my gosh, we can apply science to our business this and
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grow the business through dopamine.
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And then in 2012, I was part of a group of, they were called future leaders.
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So a set of directors at Expedia that were identified as future leader, whatever that means.
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I'm having a hard time with that term. But no, what is that?
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What does a future leader look like? But we went to South by Southwest,
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which is a big conference in Austin, media and tech.
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And And I had just started to see with great clarity, you know,
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the harms that my category had unlocked,
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you know, in terms of, well, you know, maybe Russians meddling with our elections
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or mental health and teenagers or genocides in Myanmar, all the things that
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technology had enabled, the harm that it actually had enabled by us maniacally focusing on growth.
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And I just felt a deep sense of conviction and a deep inner voice saying you
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need to use your skills and talents to make the world safer.
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I thought, okay, I don't even know what that looks like.
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So at that conference, I went to every talk that seemed like they were doing good with technology.
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So whether it was, let's help people be healthier by this app that will make people healthier.
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Or there was a talk I went to with Facebook and the government around detecting
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hateful content and doing something about it.
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I just realized I needed to leave Expedia and go work somewhere good.
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We do something good. So I went and worked for a small culinary,
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online culinary school that wanted to combat the diabetes epidemic,
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help people make home-cooked food. And I thought, that's cool.
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I'm in on that. That was a short stint of six months.
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I learned there that you ask really good questions about the founder and how
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they think about prioritizing things. It wasn't a good fit, but I failed fast, as they say.
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And then I ended up working for a company called Rover, which you may have heard
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of it. It's an app marketplace if you need a dog walker or a house or you can find one.
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And it was in product management there. And then the pandemic hit and my role
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was eliminated because guess what?
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Everyone's favorite thing to do was to walk their dog. So they really didn't...
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They didn't keep it over. It's a big round of layoffs.
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And in that, the universe answered what I'd asked for in 2017 in the most perfect way.
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I was asked to run the trust and safety strategy for Roburn.
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So it was a role that didn't exist. They made it and they said,
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okay, your job went away, but we'd like you to take this one.
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And I was like, holy cow, you got to be kidding me. This is the coolest thing ever.
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So I was responsible for understanding all the things Things that can go sideways
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when you put a million people and their pets together and articulating where
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the company should invest to make it safer.
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So that's anything from dogs getting lost or sick, harassment or theft.
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All the obvious things that you think about to fraud.
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And I stepped into that role and it was unreal cool. I was just like, I am cut out for this job.
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I love animals. I get technology.
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Oh my gosh. The heavens have parted and it's a huge gift, especially the pandemic landed on my plate.
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And about six months into that, I started to get my arms around everything that
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was going on within the community and got super clear on what I believed our
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number one priority was from an investment perspective.
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And that was to address a use case whereby our app was being used to do sexual harm to our sitters.
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So it would be, you want to come walk my dog, and that isn't what the person's looking for. No way.
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Yeah. And it was the craziest experience because I went into just this kind
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of out-of-body state for about a two-week period.
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And what I did is I went in and I logged into all those bad actor accounts.
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So we'd only had... It's very few and far between that this happens. Very rare.
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And this is all public. I mean, there's news articles around this prior to me being in the role.
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And I went into all of the bad actors accounts to say, what are you doing? How are you doing this?
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What do you look like as a profile?
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And I saw some patterns, right?
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And boy, I'll tell you, I learned more about what grooming looks like and what it's going to look like.
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Like, anyhow, so I asserted that as the number one priority to the company from
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a trust and safety perspective and got support from leadership on that and then
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spent a good amount of time articulating what to, you know, where to invest and what to do about it.
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And in that time, you know, acknowledging that any investments made that involve
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technology, so building solutions were going to take some time,
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I stood up a manual process.
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So if someone was kind of detected as looking risky in this way,
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yet hadn't done anything.
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So that was the whole premise of like, there seems to be a real signal here.
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Let's do something before the bad thing happens. Because that's what groomers
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do. They kind of poke and say, oh, I can get away with more.
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And then a bad thing happens. Life-altering thing.
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And that's around this time is when my mental health started to get real.
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I was high on life. I mean, I get that bad things happen. I get there are bad
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people out there. That isn't what eroded my mental health.
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And I should say before I go any further, my mental health has been part of
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my reality since I was 15.
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I tried to commit suicide when I was 15. So I have spent a.
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Effort in my adult life, understanding myself so that I can stay happy and healthy.
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So I just put that aside. But my mental health started to go down big time.
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Because the rate in which I was able to get these manual things over the line
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while I waited for technology was just taking forever.
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Things were getting prioritized ahead of it. I would think I had somebody,
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a team ready to work on it and then they'd get pivoted to something else.
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The business needed help somewhere else.
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And so then I hired a friend of mine to come in. Like, can I just hire someone
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to just do this work for me so I have control over it? So I did.
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And a dear friend of mine, he was an executive at a big company.
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He went through a whole round of corporate betrayal, had mental health himself. He was not working.
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I was like, hey, I think this could be a cool thing for you to work on.
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Might give you some purpose in life. So he's like, sure. Well,
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then he committed suicide.
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Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah.
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And that screamed me up. I'm about one step from that a lot of times.
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You know, that wrecked me.
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The beautiful thing at that point was because I was so wrecked,
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I mean, I had to take a week off. I still to this day can't talk about it without
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having a reaction. Yeah.
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The leadership team dove in and they're like, we're going to get this over the
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line for you, Heather. And I'm like, oh, my God.
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So then I went back to my state of like, oh, hope. And, okay,
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the tragic event wasn't all for nothing because now I've got leaders.
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They're going to get in this. They're going to see it. They're going to see
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what I've seen that's going to be part of them. Like, it's part of me.
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And, okay, maybe that's why this part of the reason why he took his life was so that, you know.
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So, and then some more months went by and time went on. And the engineering
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team was working to implement some of these things.
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But the reality is there's a lot of trust and safety things that the company
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needed to focus on. A lot of things to grow the business.
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They're aspiring to be sold and go public.
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And those things have happened since then.
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And so things were just deprioritized, pivoted to other things that were not on this use case.
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Things like reducing fraud or things that have kind of more of a hard dollar behind them.
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And because the reality is, I mean, I know this, but a lost dog is more newsworthy than a rape. Yeah.
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And that's just, it's true. Yeah. We had, yeah, you get a tier one news story,
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CNN will cover a lost dog, but not a rape.
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So that's just the macro environment we live in, you know.
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So it's hard to make a case when there isn't like a, you know,
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a risk of something getting picked up by the media or, you know what I mean?
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I mean, it just gets... And it isn't that people don't care.
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Everyone reacts the same as you do. Like, oh my gosh, this is terrible.
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But when you've got to grow your
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business and trying to get sold and these things, I think it's hard to...
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Things just got deeply organized. So then we had a bad incident occur and my
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mental health went in the toilet again.
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But then again, the leadership team got involved. So I thought,
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okay, good. Anyhow, this kind of continued on a couple of different ways.
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And in October 2022, I went to a networking event.
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And for trust and safety professionals, I made a new friend.
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And she looked at me and she goes, you need a mental health break.
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So we just had this horrible event occur.
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And we had another big event occur that was not related to harm to our sitters.
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It was another real big issue for the company. So everything pivoted over to
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that and away from the use case side of the problem statement I was pushing for.
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But she looked at me and she goes, you need a mental health break.
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And I'm like, no, I'm good. I'm good.
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I'm made for this. I'm good. I can do this. I know I'm the person that's meant to be doing this job.
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She goes, I can see it in your eyes. You're going to break.
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She goes, you just told me you hope that the plane crashes when you're in it.
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And I said, no, it's okay. Okay. And then a few months later,
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we were getting into planning for 2023.
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And I was working with some of my colleagues on a look back of where did we
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place our dollars? Where did we invest in over the year?
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And the numbers were really validating my feeling that we kept pivoting away.
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A small fraction of what we actually delivered on was on this problem statement
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it was put against other things and my body just quit I just quit yeah and I
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didn't stop crying for a week you know I still think to that week and I still
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have a reaction because I don't know I PTSD probably but you know I sent a note
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to HR my boss and I said I need a break and they were really supportive and
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I went on leave and I And I thought, okay, I got to go back to work.
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This is what, so I'm like, I need an executive coach. I've done tons of therapy.
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I've done tons of stuff in my life. I need an executive coach to help me understand
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how I can get the right tools to do this job because I think I'm made for it. I think this is my path.
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Put the word out to my friends, ended up.
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Partnering with this individual who on paper would never have thought he'd be the right fit for me.
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He's an executive coach for Accenture and all these big businesses.
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But the first thing he said to me in our intro chat, he said,
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Heather, you're a spiritual being having a human experience.
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You might be my guy.
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I spent 10 grand of my own money while on short-term disability.
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So my income went down. I spent 10 grand, hired him. I'm like,
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let's do this. He changed my freaking life.
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Oh my gosh. He was the one who was like, you need to put peace at your bullseye.
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That is what you have to do. And I just did everything he did.
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And I practice everything.
00:17:27
I listened to a book called Living Untethered. I don't know if you've heard
00:17:31
of it, but I listened to it in my living room.
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And I remember the first time I got through it, I like to puzzle and listen
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to audibles because it gives me kind of... Yeah, it's a nice combo because I
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have something in my hands so it doesn't take away from absorbing what I'm listening to.
00:17:45
And when I finished that, it was probably one in the morning,
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I was sitting in my living room here and I just stopped because I felt like
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maybe I can feel what he's describing.
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You know, maybe that can be.
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And I listened to that audible probably five times that year and just a slew of other things.
00:18:03
But anyhow, the day before I'm meant to go back to work, my leave is up.
00:18:08
I'm like, okay, I'm feeling ready.
00:18:10
I'm going to do this. You know, a few things I asked for some accommodations around.
00:18:15
I didn't want to go back and work on that particular topic because I just was
00:18:19
worried it might be triggering.
00:18:20
But there were a lot of other things I needed, you know, within the program
00:18:23
I felt comfortable working on.
00:18:24
And yeah, I thought it was going to be a meeting to re-onboard me with HR.
00:18:29
And I was told that I didn't have a role to return to.
00:18:33
Yeah. No way. Yeah. What was your gut reaction to that news?
00:18:40
Well, the old me would have gone code red. I'm a failure. What have I done?
00:18:45
Complete failure. I think I got fired. I don't know what this means.
00:18:50
But I just thought I was in awe, absolute shock. I was like, whoa, okay.
00:18:57
And so I took about four days to just sit with it. And I was like,
00:19:02
Like, I'm going to sue him.
00:19:06
I don't think that's legal. And I'm going to stand up for myself.
00:19:10
Right? Yeah. That was the first thing I thought of.
00:19:14
And I was like, yeah, I just thought I'm going to stand up for myself.
00:19:19
Yeah. I've never been in a lawsuit. I'm not one that cares about money.
00:19:22
I've never been driving my money.
00:19:24
But yeah, so that's what I did. And then I thought, so I got a lawyer and I
00:19:29
sued them. And then I thought, well, I don't feel quite prepared to go work
00:19:33
for another company right now. With reason.
00:19:38
I'll just be my own boss. So I made a website and printed some business cards
00:19:42
and reached out to one of my mentors and was like, hey, decided to just go out
00:19:47
on my own, see if I can get hired as a consultant.
00:19:49
And so he helped network me in with a bunch of stuff.
00:19:53
And then in that, I had a lot of free time. So then I am the high school equestrian coach now.
00:19:58
So I spent a bunch of time teaching high schoolers how to ride horses and really
00:20:03
been focused on refining my ability to tell my story because I think my voice
00:20:07
is one of my most powerful assets.
00:20:08
So I was actually the opener at a conference recently in San Francisco.
00:20:13
I didn't tell this story. I just told you I talked about how to get investment
00:20:17
and trust and safety and the mental health challenges of the space. So it was more on that.
00:20:22
And yeah so since then I have a one client I'm
00:20:25
making a fifth of what I used to I haven't
00:20:29
been hired for what I would hire me to do the work I did like 15 years ago but
00:20:34
it's for a company that I'm really ethically aligned with and I know that the
00:20:37
work I do helps them grow their business so I feel good about that it gives
00:20:41
me enough money to pay the bills I have three housemates now I drive I have
00:20:46
a $19.99 pickup truck that I own.
00:20:48
I shop at the thrift store exclusively and do not eat out one meal a week. And I'm fine.
00:20:56
It's all fine. It is. I mean, on paper, you know, people say,
00:20:59
what are you up to? I'm like,
00:21:01
Well, I've got three housemates now and two mile radius I live within and I
00:21:05
am the happiest I've ever been. Yeah.
00:21:08
But I've really go, it's been a wonderful like journey of letting go of that
00:21:13
external validation that so drove me.
00:21:16
The first question you get out of, you know, when you're 20 is where'd you go to university?
00:21:21
My answer was like, I didn't. That's not a great answer.
00:21:23
So I spent a lot of time, emotional, not time, but I got in hindsight,
00:21:29
inside, a lot of what made me feel okay about myself was people saying,
00:21:33
oh, you've got this great career.
00:21:34
Oh, you've got... On the outside, everything looks great with how she travels
00:21:38
and does all these things and shows her horse and all this stuff.
00:21:41
But I realized now on the inside, I was just really... I had a lot of anxiety.
00:21:45
Because I was trying to control my outcome. Like, oh, I want this promotion
00:21:49
or, oh, I really want... I want to buy that condo or, oh, I want this thing. I want this thing.
00:21:54
And then once I just made the decision to just want inner peace and just focus
00:21:59
on my attitude and effort and boundaries are a huge part of that,
00:22:02
which I know you all talk a lot about it.
00:22:05
Oh man, it's just so much more fun. My life is like fun.
00:22:09
You know, there are days that aren't, but. Yeah, and the other thing that's
00:22:12
amazing is that in 2022, which December 22 is when I went on leave,
00:22:17
there was a new law that went into place in Washington state called silence no more.
00:22:21
That says, even if you settle as part of a lawsuit,
00:22:26
which we did, you can if it's a disability related lawsuit you can still tell
00:22:30
your story about what led to your mental health which mine was I mean it was
00:22:34
on mental health leave from you know the continued deprioritization of the investment in this area,
00:22:39
is what you know broke me and because I had to accept that I had to accept the reality is that,
00:22:47
in the macro world.
00:22:50
This assertion you know women's safety is not a priority that,
00:22:55
you know, that drives consumers' decisions. You have a lost dog,
00:22:59
that's a big deal. You've got fraud going on, people don't trust you.
00:23:03
You know, but this is just like, well, if it happens, you know,
00:23:05
let me get raped. And nobody really feels that way on the inside. They're horrible.
00:23:10
But you know what I mean. And so for, anyhow. Yeah.
00:23:16
Was there any repercussion for the company? Like, was there like a lawsuit that
00:23:22
took place so that these women could be compensated?
00:23:26
There is. That's a really great question. Thanks for asking.
00:23:28
There's a class action lawsuit.
00:23:29
I don't know the details of it specifically, but there's a class action lawsuit
00:23:33
that was filed. You can just Google it and you'll find it.
00:23:36
And a friend of mine, I'm hoping we can put this in the show notes,
00:23:41
has stood up a website that will connect victims with legal support.
00:23:47
And I've written it down here. It's called helpingsurvivors.org slash roversexualassault.
00:23:53
And that will help if there are other victims or folks that happen to hear this
00:23:57
and say, oh, I would like to see if I can get some legal support on this.
00:24:01
That's a path that folks can take.
00:24:03
But yes, there's a class action lawsuit that I understand is underway right now.
00:24:07
And I think the other thing I've learned is that I think that I hope that good
00:24:13
will come out of all this in the end.
00:24:14
I hope it will make things safer for others down the road. Do you know what
00:24:17
I mean? that the harm that individuals have incurred.
00:24:21
If folks step forward and say, this isn't okay and I would like my story to
00:24:25
have, I'd like some recourse that if enough of that happens,
00:24:29
that yes, things will need to change.
00:24:31
So I encourage anyone who has been a victim or knows of a victim or knows of
00:24:35
somebody who might need to go to that website and seek legal support.
00:24:41
Yeah. Yeah, this lights a fire in me because I, I, first of all,
00:24:47
I'm very, I guess, sensitive to safety, but specifically women's safety.
00:24:54
Yeah. So to hear this, I mean, I know that this happens, right?
00:24:59
And what you're saying, like how there are companies and organizations and even
00:25:02
just fucking news, right? Like, it's not important enough.
00:25:06
And that drives me crazy.
00:25:08
Yeah. Because I'm like, first of all, let me not get into it.
00:25:12
But I'm like, it's not okay. I just think on a human level, right?
00:25:17
It's not okay to not be safe.
00:25:20
Yeah. Right? That's just like a basic human right to feel fucking safe.
00:25:25
Yeah. The other thing I would add is like the executives here at Rover are some
00:25:28
of the best humans out there.
00:25:30
Like in terms of corporate America, they really are great humans and they really do care.
00:25:34
You know, but the reality is that, you know, most, it's just kind of the way it is.
00:25:40
I mean, we all know someone who has been a victim in somewhere or we have personally.
00:25:44
You know, and so until it's, until we start,
00:25:50
till we, till society says, no, this isn't okay. And it isn't a me too thing
00:25:56
that sticks around for a year and then goes away.
00:25:57
It's like, no, this is not okay. And we need the media to talk about it.
00:26:03
Right? See, this is the thing. It has to be that the things that get coverage
00:26:07
are the things that people care about and they think about and they demand action around.
00:26:10
And my hope is that I don't know how technology is going to play out.
00:26:14
I mean, it is the wild west. There is no regulation on technology pretty much whatsoever.
00:26:19
I mean, the harm, even with generative AI, I believe it's our greatest existential
00:26:23
crisis right now, but don't get me started on that.
00:26:26
Oh, there's no regulation. I mean, you think about, there was a consumer good
00:26:30
on the shelf that was like causing all this harm. They would recall it. The FDA would put it off.
00:26:35
But for whatever reason, tech can just keep on innovating and launching all
00:26:38
this stuff, you know? It's like, blow my mind.
00:26:41
That has, for us to care, there has to be a stick too. That stick comes from
00:26:45
regulation. And it's just unregulated.
00:26:49
And it's getting more so in Europe and other parts of the world where there's
00:26:52
more regulation coming down, which is great because that will make companies do something.
00:26:57
But without that in place, it's just hard to make the case.
00:27:00
And it's hard even as a leader to go to the board and say, hey,
00:27:04
I think we should invest in this thing. You don't have to. And there's no real
00:27:06
upside to the business if you do.
00:27:08
And those four days after I was told I didn't have a role to come back to,
00:27:13
I mean, the sadness I had wasn't around the loss of the job.
00:27:15
It was a lot not being able to be there for the community because I I mean I'm
00:27:20
a gal that speaks my words I'm going to create a deck that tells the story even
00:27:24
if it makes you uncomfortable,
00:27:26
and that's always been a career limiting factor for me I mean in Expedia all
00:27:29
my peers became VPs and SVPs and I was just kind of stuck at director forever
00:27:32
you know yes you know literally same right right but I stood in that living
00:27:41
room and I stretched my arms out to the world and I I said to the community,
00:27:44
I said, the degree to which I can continue to use my voice to make you safer, I will do so.
00:27:50
And so I think for it to be something where more people say,
00:27:53
this isn't okay, we need change.
00:27:55
It just needs more visibility and awareness so that people can demand it of our government.
00:28:00
Yeah. The companies we buy from, show me what you're doing to make things safer. Yeah.
00:28:06
Just a ways away from that this is why conversations like this are so important because,
00:28:13
we can talk about it and we can
00:28:15
see your story and where you are now today but anybody
00:28:19
listening who this registers with whether they are directly affected by it or
00:28:24
know somebody that that is it's so hard to keep fighting that fight when you
00:28:31
feel like your voice isn't heard and i And I think having these conversations and hearing it and,
00:28:36
oh my gosh, there are people that this is enough to talk about it.
00:28:40
I feel like it's such a gift to be here today because even if this reaches one
00:28:44
person that's going to walk a dog and they think, oh, you know what?
00:28:47
I should bring a friend or meet in a public space.
00:28:49
I heard about that thing. Yeah. You know, and that something bad from happened
00:28:54
that was worth this because I don't know if this is, you know,
00:28:57
I'm still in the trust and safety space. Yeah.
00:28:59
They like, you know, it's not good for my career to be doing this.
00:29:03
But I think honestly, anyone that would want to work with me,
00:29:07
I would be someone that would listen to this and say, gosh, she's good for her.
00:29:10
Yeah. She didn't say anything that was confidential. She didn't say anything
00:29:14
that was, you know, you couldn't find out for yourself.
00:29:17
She told her that's within the bounds of the law. Good for her.
00:29:21
I want that in my team. So I would like to be making a fifth of what I was making forever and ever.
00:29:28
I just need to be a little bit more comfortable.
00:29:32
A little bit more comfortable. I'm only 45, you know, I've got to,
00:29:35
I would like to not be chipping away at my retirement, you know,
00:29:39
and I don't want a couple grand out of months.
00:29:41
I don't feel terrible, but still, this is the time to be earning and not burning.
00:29:47
So what are you doing? What are you doing today for your mental health?
00:29:51
Like what's your like daily practice?
00:29:53
Okay. First thing first, have you heard Hercule Derkle?
00:29:57
Yeah, I do it all the time. Wait, what is Hercule Derkle? Hercule.
00:30:01
Nikoa talked about Hercule D'Arco. Remember, it's like laying in bed?
00:30:06
Yeah. You can say how I did.
00:30:10
I was in the habit for 20 years of just rolling out of bed and getting on with
00:30:13
my day. All of my brain's just going, yeah, you're going today.
00:30:16
And I didn't want to just pull myself out of bed every day and just face what I had to do.
00:30:20
And I didn't know the term Hercule D'Arco when I started doing this about a
00:30:24
year and a half ago. I go, what I do when I go to bed at night,
00:30:27
I visualize what I want to be excited about when I wake up.
00:30:32
And it could be anything from like, I'm going to empty the dishwasher. That'll feel so good.
00:30:37
To, oh, you know what? I need to send so-and-so a note, whatever it is.
00:30:41
And then when I wake up in the morning, I lay there until I remember what it was.
00:30:47
And I don't get out of bed until I'm looking forward to doing something.
00:30:51
Nice. Okay. So, it's amazing.
00:30:56
It's amazing. It is. It's the best. And sometimes I have to lay there for a
00:31:00
good 15 minutes to be like, Oh, what do I want to do?
00:31:03
That sounds like a good first step.
00:31:07
And sometimes I remember what it was when I went to bed. Sometimes I won't,
00:31:09
but I just lay there until I feel ready to do something.
00:31:13
Not just dragging myself up to get on with another day.
00:31:17
Yeah. So there's that, you know, I spend two to three hours at the barn with
00:31:21
the horses every day, which has been, I mean, before I was paying someone to
00:31:25
do my chores, you know, I paid somebody to ride my horse.
00:31:29
I would only ride once a week because it was working all the time.
00:31:32
And now I do everything myself. I clean my stalls, I ride my horse,
00:31:35
do my things, I coach the kids.
00:31:38
That's been just, you know, unbelievable part of my day. and then I actually
00:31:42
used part of my settlement to put a sauna in the backyard.
00:31:47
I did that with a sauna and a cold shower.
00:31:50
So those are kind of, I don't do those every day, but a couple of days a week, I do that. Yeah.
00:31:55
Every day, I hurtle-dirtle.
00:31:58
And your inner peace is your priority now. It is. Yeah.
00:32:02
And I've got to think on the things I do around that to, you know,
00:32:07
to find the inner peace. And of course, I mean, I mean, oftentimes I find myself
00:32:11
in a state of anxiety or fear.
00:32:12
And honestly, the fear, the biggest fear I come from is, oh my gosh,
00:32:16
is anyone ever going to hire me again?
00:32:18
Am I going to just, you know? And I'm like, that's ridiculous.
00:32:22
Yes, someone's going to hire you. Yes, Heather, there's so many things that you can do.
00:32:26
And you've already proven that you can live on just like, I'm literally making like 50 grand a year.
00:32:30
And I can get by, you know? And it's fine. What am I worrying about?
00:32:34
You've already figured that. You can make 50 grand working at Home Depot. You're fine. You know?
00:32:39
That's just the indoctrination that we've had, I think, growing up.
00:32:43
And then the boundaries are a huge part of it.
00:32:46
When there's a vampire energy draining situation, just putting a boundary and
00:32:52
being okay with however that's going to go.
00:32:55
And I can't control how someone reacts. I can approach the conversation.
00:33:00
I try and give myself space to approach a tough conversation from a place of
00:33:04
peace, loving kindness.
00:33:07
Like put myself in their shoes think how would
00:33:10
I want to hear this message because I have you know I've cut a lot of people
00:33:13
out of my life not like cut them out but said this isn't my space and so sit
00:33:20
with that and maybe if you want to take that on board and adjust and then we
00:33:24
can still you know still be in the same space but if not then that's okay maybe later,
00:33:30
yeah that's huge though that's we talk about it a lot like that's so important
00:33:34
and I think I'm just starting to learn that I can do that with work Thank you for watching!
00:33:38
I think it's, you talked about the vampire sucking energy.
00:33:42
Hopefully nobody I work with is listening. But no, I mean, I think even now
00:33:47
I'm learning that boundaries aren't just in relationships, right?
00:33:51
Like this could be, and I think it's healthy to set boundaries with how much
00:33:55
of my life and energy and peace I am giving away to an organization that fucking
00:34:02
literally could care less. You know what I mean?
00:34:05
Oh so you know what you know one thing i found is hilarious when i look back
00:34:09
is feedback annual feedback right i just get such anxiety i don't know if it resonates with you.
00:34:17
I'm like why did i have so much anxiety over one person's opinion of me,
00:34:22
no yeah yeah yeah trading
00:34:26
goals was a rough one oh my god for fuck's sake
00:34:29
is this going to be enough for kids that they want to hear i think
00:34:33
the other thing to be aware of too is just the power
00:34:36
of no like you know and being and
00:34:39
feeling okay saying that because you know
00:34:43
early on my career i would be a yes
00:34:46
you know a yes man yes yes yes yes yes yes yes until i got fucking burned out
00:34:50
yeah you know wake up on christmas day and be like i'm fucking done but like
00:34:56
the minute i learned to use no in a very proactive and healing way i'd love
00:35:02
that word because it is a complete sentence.
00:35:06
Yeah i love i know i have to say i'm not gonna do that you can do it i'm not
00:35:11
gonna do that yeah yeah sounds like you'll have fun with that no honestly go
00:35:17
forward we don't need to do it together you know whatever.
00:35:21
Okay I have some questions question one
00:35:24
I've now hearing your story I don't want to guess this for you so I'm curious
00:35:30
to date what has been the hardest lesson you've had to learn like change is
00:35:37
happening things are moving in a direction that I want them to but just not at the pace,
00:35:42
that I think they should be moving but I am not in charge of the pace of which things are moving,
00:35:48
I love that that's big in the direction that gives me hope that's actually big that gives me hope.
00:35:59
You could go back in time to a younger version of yourself and give yourself
00:36:04
a piece of advice what would you say and how old would you be,
00:36:10
I've taken myself back actually in this past year and a half when I tried to
00:36:14
think when did the anxiety start to show up and it started to show up when I was 10,
00:36:19
because I changed I went to a private school where
00:36:22
everything was very kind of safe and understood we all wore uniforms and then
00:36:26
I went to a public school and then it was being cool mattered and fashion mattered
00:36:31
and I had no friends and that's really when the anxiety showed up because then
00:36:36
I really cared about getting in but up until that point I don't remember anxiety until then,
00:36:42
and so I go back to that little 10 year old oh I might cry Oh, I'm sorry.
00:36:47
No, it's okay. Because I have done this. Sorry.
00:36:51
I go back to that little 10-year-old girl and say, you are beautiful and kind
00:36:55
and just perfect as you are. And just be you.
00:37:01
I love that. I love that. We need to save Ford for tears.
00:37:07
Like, keep it. I'm out. Somebody's cutting onions in here.
00:37:11
I would also tell her you're a very sensitive person. That means you cry a lot.
00:37:15
And that's okay. It doesn't mean you're okay. Just cry when you need to.
00:37:19
People get uncomfortable when you do, but it's just you. You just feel a lot.
00:37:23
Yeah. I did the other day. I hadn't cried in months.
00:37:28
Something just hit me wrong. and write for an hour. And man, I felt really good.
00:37:34
Let it go, right? It's cathartic. It really is.
00:37:37
And then I wrote about it and I was like, I can move on with my day now.
00:37:42
Yeah. You knew that release.
00:37:44
Totally. And then for me, when I get what I call code red, it can get scary
00:37:48
when people see it happen.
00:37:49
You know, it's almost an out-of-body experience where I'm just hyperventilating,
00:37:53
crying, and I'm just, I'm maxing out. Yeah.
00:37:56
Now I know that about myself. like this past year and a half.
00:38:00
Okay. You're just, it doesn't happen very often. A big thing has happened.
00:38:03
And so you're just reacting to it and you will go through it and you'll be okay.
00:38:07
But when people see it that are close to me, they're like, Oh,
00:38:10
Heather Brink, do we need to get her on medication or something?
00:38:16
Oh yeah. I can relate to that. I think a big thing that I learned in my journey in therapy was that,
00:38:24
certain reactions or physical side effects, I guess you could say,
00:38:31
that I thought were abnormal were...
00:38:35
Or made me weird, or like, you know, I was ashamed to show like that emotion was normal.
00:38:42
And everybody's different. And there were certain things that I knew I learned
00:38:47
about myself where I would, speaking of anxiety and things like that,
00:38:50
I would jam pack my day of like thousands of I have to do these things,
00:38:56
because that is what's expected of me, or
00:38:59
I should perform this to this level right so
00:39:02
just jam pack your day jam pack your day and then I would break
00:39:05
I would have the code red like you say and I was
00:39:08
I mean I was broken like just leave me be let me spin out don't look at me like
00:39:15
hopefully I get it together again but learning through therapy that is something
00:39:21
I was doing if I felt anxious if I felt out of control if I was it was like a trauma response.
00:39:27
If I can just mask with all of these things, nobody will know.
00:39:31
And then once I realized what the cause of that was, I was free.
00:39:36
Like, oh, I'm not weird or crazy or abnormal.
00:39:40
This is just something. Well, you are weird, but I love you.
00:39:44
Well, I mean, I am wearing a Halloween shirt in July. Stay weird.
00:39:49
Stay weird. Like, don't be normal. No. Just stay weird.
00:39:54
Be kind. That's what I tell my nephews. yeah
00:39:57
that resonates with me a lot I did the same I jam-packed every minute every
00:40:01
day but for me it was because I never felt like I was enough so if I was pushing
00:40:05
myself as hard as I could and there was nothing left to give and there was nothing
00:40:08
I more I could do to be enough and so it's just the best you got yeah you know
00:40:12
but this past year I really realized I'm enough I'm enough yeah
00:40:17
to the point of exhaustion right it's like I have nothing left to give because
00:40:21
I'm done yeah same horrible place to be but we're good now look at us look at us look at you.
00:40:30
Halloween in July you know I butchered it up put up a shed this morning at least
00:40:36
we have the walls up you know we're good.
00:40:39
Heather, your story, I mean, I absolutely
00:40:43
love it. This might be one of my favorite episodes, should I say?
00:40:46
No, I just think your message and your story and the courage you have to just
00:40:50
be vulnerable on this platform with us. Like, I'm super honored to hear your story.
00:40:55
And I just, man, it's good. I love it.
00:40:59
I'm really grateful for it to be here. Like I said, I think it was just the
00:41:02
perfect step in my path, honestly.
00:41:05
Because like I said, mental health has been, you know, I think I tried to kill myself when I was 15.
00:41:09
Like it is anyone who knows me knows that I've really tried
00:41:12
to find peace along the way and I do a lot of therapy I've done
00:41:15
a lot of stuff like this that and the other thing and I think it's my
00:41:18
I don't know about how you two feel but kind of in my superpower too because
00:41:21
I've had to get a real high level of emotional intelligence along the
00:41:24
way and I think that led to itself well in
00:41:27
the work environment because I'm able to really kind of read a situation and
00:41:30
ultimately I was an influencer internal to get
00:41:33
people to do stuff you know and so I think it became kind
00:41:36
of a superpower power at work and then you know i
00:41:39
don't know but i think this is just with you know the fact that there's the
00:41:44
silent stone war which says because it was fmla and then this came about like
00:41:47
this is like the safest place for me to go tell this because i don't know what's
00:41:51
gonna happen my boyfriend's like you're not doing anything illegal and nothing's
00:41:55
gonna happen i'm like well if they hear this you're not gonna like it i think
00:41:57
i'll probably at least get a letter from a lawyer, won't I?
00:41:59
He's like, I don't know.
00:42:04
That's how I think. Companies do things, even if someone hasn't done something
00:42:07
wrong to scare and bully somebody.
00:42:09
Quiet. And you know what? There's a lot of people in the trust and safety place
00:42:13
that have very powerful stories to tell and they don't tell them because they're scared of retaliation.
00:42:17
And so therefore, the word doesn't get out. People don't know the harm exists,
00:42:20
and nothing changes or not enough changes.
00:42:23
And so, I don't know. I'm really grateful to be here. and I hope it makes at
00:42:28
least one person safer out there and my mental health tips and tricks will land with somebody too.
00:42:34
Yeah, for sure. I love this. Thank you so, so much for just being you and being a badass.
00:42:45
You're a total badass. And like, you know, with the podcast,
00:42:52
you know, we get listened to all over the world.
00:42:56
And we have a lot of listeners which is scary i'm
00:42:59
not even going to say the number anymore because it scares me but what
00:43:03
i know i finally got to that point where you
00:43:06
got to jerry skittles i like i can't even look at the stats anymore yeah i don't
00:43:11
need to know it's better not to honestly and just think it's yeah you'll be
00:43:15
a chit chat and then just keep it that way yeah yeah but i selfishly i still
00:43:21
do it for me i don't do it for anybody else i do it because i I like this.
00:43:24
Like I get to hear stories like yours where I'm like, fuck, I wish I would've
00:43:28
heard this when I was younger, you know, like this would have mattered.
00:43:33
And so that's why I think your story is going to reach. Yeah, I love that.
00:43:37
That other mental health thing I've implemented is I don't look at the news at all.
00:43:41
For a year and a half, I have not looked at the news. Oh my gosh, what a game changer.
00:43:45
Because when I... Oh my gosh, you guys, when I hear about stuff now, it's almost hilarious.
00:43:50
I was like... Yeah. The spy balloon thing when that... I look at a dinner table now.
00:43:56
Someone's like, oh, have you heard about the Chinese spy balloon in Canada?
00:43:58
I'm like, well, come again. What?
00:44:02
It sounds fake, right? You're like, come on, dude. Yeah.
00:44:06
So, anyhow. Thank you. Unplug from the news.
00:44:12
Well, I appreciate this. This has been great. Thank you so much for sharing
00:44:16
your story again with us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
00:44:21
Unplug from my business? Yeah, please. Yeah, go for it. Okay,
00:44:25
so I can be found at twinkle.llc.
00:44:27
So my business is Twinkle and that's because I want to shed light into the darkness.
00:44:31
One thing I'm focusing right now is offering coaching to trust and safety professionals
00:44:36
that are dealing with mental health.
00:44:37
So within the space, there's a lot
00:44:38
of people that deal with mental health challenges and trust and safety.
00:44:41
And my coach told me I'd be a great coach. I'm like, let's try coaching.
00:44:45
So I only have one client, but if there's anybody out there that is in the trust
00:44:49
and safety space that would like some mental health coaching,
00:44:51
I'd love to do an introductory chat.
00:44:55
I freaking love that. That you're giving back, right?
00:44:59
Like you're taking from your heart and your soul and you're reaching out and helping other people.
00:45:05
And to me, that is the most honorable and most beautiful thing that you can do. Yeah.
00:45:12
Thank you. And now I'm going to cry.
00:45:17
I've done good until now.
00:45:22
Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate you, Heather. This has been great.
00:45:26
You hi all thank you so much for listening to this episode i'm g-rex and i'm
00:45:31
dirty skittles don't forget to subscribe rate and review this podcast we'd love
00:45:35
to listen to your feedback we can't do this without you guys it's okay to be
00:45:41
not okay just make sure you're talking to someone.
00:45:45
Music.
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