Therapy Isn’t Scary: Breaking Mental Health Myths with Dr. Bonnie Wims

[00:00:06] Hey there, listeners. Welcome to Shit That Goes Under Our Heads, the podcast where we normalize conversations around mental health. That's right. I'm Dirty Skittles and alongside my amazing co-host, G-Rex, we are here to share stories and tips from our incredible guests. Each episode, we deep dive into struggles and triumphs of mental health, offering practical advice and heartfelt support. Because no one should feel alone in their journey. Join us as we break the stigma and build a community of understanding and compassion.

[00:00:35] Tune in and let's start talking about the shit that goes on in our heads. Three, two, one. Welcome back to another episode of Shit That Goes On In Our Heads. I'm here with my amazing co-host, Dirty Skittles. And we have an amazing, amazing guest today, Bonnie. Welcome, Bonnie. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. How is it going? Where are you located first?

[00:01:03] A part of the United States or not United States? I am in Manhattan in the beautiful city of Manhattan. On the east side, I look at the river, the east river. Oh, yeah. It's cold. Is it cold? Yes, it's cold. Yes, I'm all wrapped up. Yeah. Aw. Well, at least you're staying home. Do you get to go out and do like snow angels in Manhattan? Or is that no? Can we not lay on the ground in Manhattan?

[00:01:33] I'm off of First Avenue. I might not be here if I tried to do a snow angel right in the middle of First Avenue. But you never know. Don't tempt me. No snow right now, though. Just that, you know, that beautiful, dirty, cold, no tree winter. That's what we're in. But you guys are my sunshine today. You're my bright. Aw. Aw. Yeah, yeah. I have snow. I have about eight inches on the ground and we have about another eight inches coming tonight.

[00:02:02] How do you do snow angels outside? Uh, no, because I'm 61 and a half. Once you get down, you don't get back up, all right? There's no getting back up from that. Oh, there's that. Because then it looks like a snow blob because you're now rolling around in the snow back and forth trying to get up. And it's cold. So, no. Yeah. I hadn't thought about that part. Yeah. That's probably very true. Thanks. Thanks for having me on, you guys.

[00:02:31] It's been a long, uh, I've been waiting very patiently in your waiting room for months and months and months. Stalking you, waiting and waiting. Um, Gretchen, you found me, right? I did. I found you on Instagram. You posted something that really just resonated with me. And I was like, I need to have you on the podcast. And so I was originally on your podcast way back when. Yep. Therapy Deconstructed. That's mine. Yeah.

[00:03:01] And we had such a great conversation and you came on and we did a pre-interview with you. And the pre-interviews usually last about 15 minutes or it lasts an hour and a half. But we just like, we, we just like hit all the notes. And, you know, you know, the mission of our podcast really is to normalize how we talk about mental health. Yeah. And yours is all about deconstructing therapy and making it, making people feel comfortable about going to therapy. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:31] And, um, just try to dispel those myths about what it is because I think there's a lot of people out there who think about it as being beneficial. I've had people reach out and say, I've been staring at your website for like six months. I've dialed the first three numbers of your phone number 10 times. I've clicked on send the email how many times. So it's a, there's something between the knowing I want help and the actual execution of getting therapy.

[00:03:58] I think that scares people because I think in large part of the myths, I think there's myths about it. And so I love your podcast because you just talk about mental health in an unblinking way that I think really has and can will continue to resonate with people because somebody's talking real about this, not fluffy, not trying to make it sound like something it's not, but just real, the dark days, the good days, the in between.

[00:04:24] Um, so yeah, I think I'm so grateful you reached out because, um, I, I don't know, there's just some connection with us and, and what we were, what we're trying to do with this silly thing right here. Um, so I was so grateful because I remember thinking, you know, if everyone talked about their mental health as openly, and I understand why people don't, it's a very personal, vulnerable thing. I'm sure there are days that you think I really have to share this or why would I have shared that?

[00:04:54] It's hard. It's vulnerable. But, um, in those, in that vulnerable way, which is what I try to do on my podcast to have guests on and I speak as vulnerable as I can about my own mental health journey. Cause don't have a therapist that doesn't know their own journey. Um, I just feel like the vulnerability is where the truth is. That's when we really hear each other. Um, and you realize you're not alone.

[00:05:18] And there are times now while always that being alone, that isolated feeling, that's the number one real problem between not wellness, but, but just on that journey, you know, the hard work, the getting out of bed, the days that you don't want to, the, uh, um, doing the work that you know you're supposed to do. Even when you're tired or you don't, you feel like you're shouting in a void. It's knowing you're not alone doing that work.

[00:05:47] And that's what your podcast does for me. When I feel like, oh, is anybody really listening? Are they listening to my podcast? Are they reading my blogs? Do they care about my newsletter? Do they really hear when I post? And it's not about popularity. I could care less about that. I just want people to hear it because I'm trying to speak to something to remove the barrier from how I feel to how I get help. Because there is that barrier.

[00:06:15] And that stalls people from getting well. And, um, we don't have to feel that way. You don't have to feel that way. Doesn't mean you won't still dip, but you'll always know in those dips, once you've gotten help. And once you get these tools, and I know you know this, um, there is, there is, it's hard when you dip again. But there is a knowledge. You and I had a conversation through Instagram. And it was, you said, yeah, it's hit again.

[00:06:45] But this time, I'm doing it differently. And that's it. Right. That's it. That's the difference. 100%. 100%. So you're right. Like in November, you know, beginning of November towards mid-December 2024, I did dip. But I had all these amazing tools. And this time, everybody knew where I stood. Right? Because before, like, I had my extroverted mask on and I just, like, sucked it up. This time, I didn't suck it up.

[00:07:14] And it was actually very refreshing. It felt like I took a weighted x-ray blanket off my shoulder. And I could just continue moving forward. And with that, what, what helped also being open is that, you know, this time my wife knew what was going on. So she was very accommodating. Right? She helped me, you know, to see what I should put my focus on, what I should step away from. And also people at work knew.

[00:07:43] Like, what, people knew I was not happy. You can only hide resting bitch face for so long. I couldn't hide it anymore. Like, people knew I was unhappy. But then I changed the trajectory once again. Right? On January 2nd, I quit my job. And I opened my own company. And now I'm doing my own thing. And, like, if my story's not a story of hope, then I don't know what is. Right?

[00:08:07] Because I went from that really super dark place in December of 2022 to where I am now. And it was funny. I was talking to my editor. My book was almost done. I totally am now rewriting that whole last chapter to include this new first chapter. Yeah. Yeah. But it's podcasts like ours that are going to help change the world and make things a little less scary for people.

[00:08:35] Because the next few years are going to be really tough mentally on people. And if we can give them some escapism by, you know, just throwing on your AirPods or your headphones and listening to a podcast, then you know you're not alone. Right? Yeah. We all fight our battles a little differently. But I'm telling you, therapy is not scary. And there's all sorts of different kinds of therapy. So... I mean, it doesn't have to be scary. Right? Like, I do...

[00:09:04] I can relate to the fear of the unknown. Or it's not even the unknown. Like, I think to some degree, some people have an idea of maybe what therapy is, whether it's, you know, what they've seen in movies or whatever. But I think the fear of not knowing how much it can help or can it even help at all is probably why, you know, a lot of people are afraid to start. Because they're like, I mean, what is this really going to help me out? Like, I'm in such a dark place. Is this actually going to work?

[00:09:34] Yeah. Yeah. I remember the first time I went to therapy, it was... I felt like there was a... You know, like a tsunami was coming at me and I wasn't going to survive if I opened up and spoke about what I was feeling. I remember saying, it's too much. I don't know where to start. That was the very first time. Years and years later, when I feel that way still, like occasionally when things dip,

[00:10:03] I remember that just because it feels that way doesn't really mean it's true. Because you are incredibly resilient. You are incredibly strong. And the people around you and support systems that you have, the different legs of the stool of support we were talking about, you have those. And so I hope people try... I hope that I help people try to recognize that the feeling of being too much overwhelmed, I can't handle it. The vulnerability is too scary.

[00:10:32] That if they just take a baby step into that, that it just falls. You notice it just falls like a house of cards. It's like, if you're brave enough to step into it and start speaking, all of that dissipates. So you're still scared. You still have vulnerabilities. But that first just barrier of, I cannot do this. You realize absolutely you actually can. And there's nothing, nothing better than someone looking at you and hearing you.

[00:11:02] Just hearing you. No judgment. Not even trying to fix it right away. Nothing strategy. Just, I hear you. I'm right here with you. So, man, that's... Because your mind's telling you, you're wrong. Something's wrong with you. Nobody can hear this. You know, your mind's telling you all this terrible negative stuff. And then you speak and someone says, I hear you. I can be right here with you. Man, all of that falls away

[00:11:31] because it's proof right there that there's nothing wrong with you, that you can actually be heard and spoken and listened to in a way that's, it's just, I don't know what we do without it, honestly, you know? And I wish everybody who has any sort of torment in their soul, if they walk around with these thoughts and feelings of being alone and something's wrong with them, I wish everyone could have an opportunity to speak to someone

[00:12:00] and just be heard that way. Because, I don't know about you guys, but I think that's the first time for me it changed everything. It changed everything. Yeah. My, my favorite therapist, I still, like I was messaging her the other day just out of the, like, can you practice in Georgia yet? Like, she, I joined, I speed dated my therapist, that's where that comes from for me because I was like, I'm determined. I had tried therapy in the past and it just, it didn't work. Tried it again,

[00:12:29] found that fit. And I remember, like one of our early sessions, her saying, you know, I am here for you. And I'm like, yeah, okay. But like, I didn't put much weight into it. I'm like, yeah, sure. I'm paying you. You're here for me. Okay. But through one of our sessions, I remember I was struggling with like an emotion, like this happened. And I don't know, like, and I couldn't put it into words. And she made it was like, you must, it was because this, or you felt that way because this, you know,

[00:13:00] echoed this other feeling when you're from your childhood, like she just nailed it. And I was like, she is here for me. And not only in a way that like, I'm listening to you, I'm here for you. I've got your back, but I'm walking through this with you. Like, I am here to hear what you're saying. And I know exactly how you felt in that moment. And it validated everything. And then I was like, yeah. Oh, and then it became a different experience because I'm like, oh, she actually is here for me to help and get me through this.

[00:13:28] And she understands how I feel and why. And I was like, mind blown. I had no idea it could happen. Yeah. Yeah. I totally like, that's my favorite part of working with people. Sometimes it takes a while because you don't trust and you think, nobody in my life has given me this gift. I don't even know what this is. This isn't real. I can't trust you. But they're that moment. And I always know it. I feel it. I hang up with a client.

[00:13:55] I do like a happy dance around my office because I feel that moment where they finally let down their guard and trust, trust the relationship that we're building. Like you said that you, you look and you go, oh my God, this person is really truly for me. They're here for me because you think about it, you guys, anything with your mental health. I mean, I've gone through my own stuff. I'm open about it. On my podcast came from an abusive alcoholic home and ran away when I was 15.

[00:14:22] And there was always this constant narrative that something was wrong with me. This happened because something was wrong with me. And then, so you've got the trauma, then you've got the judgment, and then you've got the, the feelings and behavior, depressions, anxiety, all the stuff that comes out of that. So now you're handling all of that and you feel alone and you don't know how to talk about it. So you put on your happy face and you do what you're supposed to do. And I went to school and I didn't,

[00:14:51] graduated high school. I did everything I was supposed to do, but inside I was just a wreck. And so, yeah, it wasn't until therapy that there was like this light bulb went on that that's what I was doing, that I was doing this chatter inside my head constantly about what was wrong with me. And that permeates in current relationships.

[00:15:21] So then you just repeat the cycle of the, of the dysfunctional relationships because you get with people that you only think you deserve. So maybe they're not nice to you, or maybe they're not as good as they could be to you, or you, you don't think you deserve, you, you go searching for what you think you deserve or what is, what is, what you've had in the past. You haven't learned that it wasn't your fault. You haven't learned that. But whoever abused you or the trauma that you went through, or what,

[00:15:50] what has happened to you in life is not because there's something wrong with you, you know, but you do react to it and it does live in you. And you begin to behave out of this sense of what happened to you. And for me, you know, a good chunk of my first 15 years of life was frightening, abusive, dysfunctional, with nobody in the family speaking about it in any real way. Get up the next morning, put a smile on your face.

[00:16:19] Mom has sunglasses on because she's a black guy, but nobody talks about it. We don't have a big bowl to put mashed potatoes in anymore because he smashed it last night. Well, that's okay. We'll pick another bowl. It's this, it was this dysfunction of not talking about it that I learned that silence, you know, the silence. And so I would just escape into reading or my imagination, me and my Barbie, I had a Barbie airplane.

[00:16:49] Oh, And we go, we lived on a pseudo farm, which I hated because I was always a Manhattan girl somewhere down deep in my heart. They take my Barbie airplane and my Barbie flight attendants, and we'd march down the field and climb up into this tree house. And I would be flying all around the world, living in a penthouse in Manhattan. I was anywhere but where I really was. And that's the,

[00:17:16] I think the only thing that kept me sane at that time. So I continued that through life, you know, I just continued that I could go into my imagination until I realized that I wasn't creating a real life. You know, I wasn't creating bricks and mortar and real relationships. So off on that tangent, but that's therapy. I just feel like therapy saved me. It saved me. It brought me back to myself and taught me the most important lesson was that I'm not wrong. I'm not broken. Yeah.

[00:17:47] You know, life is hard and things happen to me, but I deserve happiness and fulfillment just like anybody else, you know? So it was a good, good process. And I just want everybody to know that, you know, I want everybody to know that. It's, and I don't understand stigma. I really don't. I don't know why we make fun of or denigrate anyone who admits to having challenges with their mental health. I don't, I think it's people's fear. Right.

[00:18:17] Don't you think? For sure. For sure. I think, yeah, it's fear. And maybe the fact that like, you're admitting you're vulnerable and you're weak in some way, or you can't get through something and people are not able to handle that. Like they don't want to take it on, you know? Yeah. And it's not just that, like think about the people that are going to work. Right. And like, there's so much stigma in the workplace.

[00:18:45] Like you can't show up to work as your true self without feeling like repercussions. And, you know, this is why like people don't want to call companies EAP programs. Right. Because they're afraid of, they're afraid of what their employers are going to find out. So they're trying to seek other therapy. And like, especially in today's world, right. Everybody's terrified. And if you're not, then like, you really should be.

[00:19:12] And you should be talking to somebody and like finding that safe space for me. My safe space is my therapist. And, you know, a lot like dirty skittles. I had to speed date my therapist. I went through three before I found the one that really, you know, spoke to me and made me feel seen and made me feel heard and helped me find my voice and my footing. And I think that's what people need. They need to be able to have somebody show them how to find their voice and how to find their footing and stop the negative self-talk.

[00:19:42] Cause that negative self-talk does is even worse, right? You're, you're sitting around calling yourself a piece of shit all day, but you're not fixing the problem. And you're not talking about ways to look at it from a different way. No. I mean, that's what therapy taught me is like, it's okay to feel shitty, but you know, you have a safe space. And I think that if people knew that they had a safe space, right? We, you, you guys take,

[00:20:12] I have to follow like the Hippocratic loan, right? It's a safe space and people can come in and bear their souls. And you guys are there that like, it's like a big warm hug, right? That's how I felt when I came out of therapy, my first time, I'm like, man, I felt seen and heard. And they explained to me what was going on in me because at the time I had no idea what was going on. Yeah. So I knew it was, I was terrified and I was depressed and.

[00:20:41] It's scary. I just didn't know where to go. And what made, made it even harder for me is that after I finally came out with what was going on, it terrified the people around. Yeah. Yeah. And so like, that wasn't fair to them. And, and do you think it terrified them because they didn't know what to do? I think so. Yeah. Because they didn't know how to help me. They didn't, they didn't, they were mad that I didn't say anything, but the thing is just like,

[00:21:11] I didn't know how to say it because I didn't know what was going on. Yeah. Yeah. I was 59 and a half when that happened. And, you know, when I was growing up, we were told not to talk about it, but I think that the trajectory is starting to change and I've noticed it more in places like LinkedIn, right? We, there's more mental health talk now, probably more now than there has been in the last four or five years. I think, I think the more people can relate and talk about it and get through that

[00:21:41] together. Like the, like when I found out about what was happening with you the first time I, I was, I wasn't scared or like any of that. I remember thinking like, okay, well we're going to do this together. Like we're riding through this. Like, what do we got to do? Like, Oh, try this and making recommendations. So, and I think I could only be, I could only show up that way because I had, I didn't have the stigma of mental health. Like I had already been going through my own things and I had been going into therapy. And for me, it was like, Oh,

[00:22:10] like this is a great party in therapy. Come on over. You're not feeling great. Like let's do this. So I think the more people can talk about it and take off like that fear of like, somebody's not feeling great. Oh, I don't know what to do. Like take that away and just understand that on a human level, we're all capable of speaking to somebody and being vulnerable and getting through it. Like you're capable of getting through this. You just, yeah. Just try,

[00:22:39] just have a conversation, speed date your therapist, you know? Oh, you guys both mentioned that. And I'll just say that again. It's, um, so critical that it's the right person. I just, um, I'm never offended or feelings hurt or anything. If someone doesn't, doesn't end up going with me because it just means to me that they're out there searching for the right one that fits with what their needs are. Because I went to therapy one time. Well, during my training,

[00:23:07] I had to counseling psychologists are required, which I think is such a, every therapist should have to go to therapy. And, my first year it was, I picked this therapist and he was okay. It just didn't fit me, but I stayed with that guy the whole school year. So the whole 10 months, because I was afraid to break up with him. Because of my trauma and my own story and all that nonsense. And what a ridiculous waste of time. You know, it didn't really,

[00:23:37] because the next year when I found someone else, I was like, it was so different and nothing against him. It just didn't click. And so yes, be data therapist. My goodness, find the one and be open and be able to speak up. If that changes again, like just really, this is your time, your money, you get to choose, you get to say, this is not about them. And that's the other thing. I think that hierarchy between, oh, this doctor and the patient, you know,

[00:24:05] that's a bunch of bullshit because how could I know you better than you? I'm just helping you find it. I'm your guide. I'm walking alongside you when it's scary and dark. And maybe I'm holding a flashlight, but you're the one doing all the work. So how can I know you better than you? Never in a million years. So there's some sort of nag inside of you that says this isn't right. Trust that. Don't let that person, that therapist, expert say something different.

[00:24:35] Cause that's just, like I said, it's not true. It's so, so I'm so glad you guys both brought that up. I think that's a big misunderstanding about therapy is you get with somebody and you're stuck. No. And I think that's the key. Cause the first therapist I went to, I similar to you was like, well, I guess, I guess it's a me problem that I don't really vibe with them. Well, like I remember they were very heavy on like workbooks and answering questions. And I'm like, I don't want to do, like,

[00:25:03] I knew I was going to have to do work, but I don't want to write shit down in like a workbook. Like it was not my vibe at all, but I did it. Cause I was afraid to not do it. Cause I thought, well, I must not be ready to heal because I, I don't want to do this shit. Right. Yeah. And then it, I think I took a year before I tried. And I, that's why I actually started with better help was because at the time that was like the first therapy platform where I could text. So for me also being afraid to kind of like break up with my therapist,

[00:25:33] I was like, Oh, I can just text and I'll just go. So if that's not working out and I'll go somewhere else. And then I became like, okay, no, I need the help. This is what I think I need them to specialize in. Ooh, can I start with? And the first one, nope, not a good fit. And it was like two conversations. Okay. Done. Went to the one that all of a sudden it was like, ah, this is, this is the one. And some people might think, well, I don't know. You know,

[00:26:02] like you think about your first go around and blaming yourself is, I mean, I was already blaming myself for everything else. Why don't I blame myself for the therapy not working out? Right. That was another thing I'm doing wrong. Of course, that's kind of how you go into it. So if you don't understand like what you need specifically, if your first kind of step into it, like I said, just kind of listen to that gut, listen to that feeling that says, like you said, I don't want to do this workbook. I don't think that will help me.

[00:26:31] That's telling you, yeah, no, this isn't what you're looking for. And trust that because that's really, but see, that's, that is the other problem is we don't trust ourselves because we're living in a bunch of pain and we're hearing a bunch of voices. you know, not voices, our voice, our voice in our head telling us all these things that aren't true. Lots of negative stuff, lots of blame game, lots of judgment, but we don't trust ourselves. And I think that's the part people say to me,

[00:27:00] how can I tell the difference between the negative voices and the real me? And I'm, and I always say that's, that's what we're doing here is we're, we're, we're playing with that. We're, it's kind of a project so that you can start to hear it. Cause once you hear it, you guys know this, you can tell the difference now, right? You can tell the difference between the negative, the negative judgments that are coming from what has happened to you, coming from abuse, trauma, experiences that, you know, whatever judgments,

[00:27:30] anything that's happened to you. And that voice that is coming from a true, like heart, soul, sense of self, you know, and the quieter this nasty voice gets, the louder this one gets and you trust it more and more. And I think that is also really the big, hopefully the big success story through therapy is to help people trust themselves more, not less. And so if you're in therapy and you're trusting yourself less, get out of there. Yeah.

[00:28:01] Taking a left turn down the wrong road and we need to get that. Yeah. Not because something's wrong with you. You've just made, you need to make a new choice. You need to, to go back out there on the dating scene. And I know people like, Oh, I don't want to start over again. Or, Oh, I just, it's so hard to find the right one. It's expensive. And it's this and that. Yes, it is. You're worth it. Yeah. It is. And putting that work into yourself. So, I mean, today,

[00:28:29] I'm probably the happiest I've been in 20 years. Wow. You know, but I had to put, I had to put so much work into it. Right. There's not an easy button. And, you know, for, for me, I'm fortunate that we get to do this podcast. Right. So for us, you know, one Saturday a month, we record all our sessions and we learn something new in every single recording that we do.

[00:28:55] There's so many great takeaways and even stuff that I can incorporate into my own therapy. Right. Yeah. But this is also a very safe space. We provide a safe space for our guests. And that's the same sense. That's the same feeling I get when I see my therapist. Right. It's a safe space. And you do become very vulnerable, you know, once you start talking into the microphone. But we've had several guests reach out to us and say,

[00:29:25] thank you. Right. Because now they feel like they have lifted that heavy weighted x-ray blanket off their shoulders. And they got to speak their truth and what they've gone through and what helped them and what didn't help them. And, and having guests like you on Bonnie is very helpful for us. Right. It's helpful for all of us. Yeah. Because I still kind of revisit like different things I do with my therapy. So I incorporate a little art therapy into my, my practice.

[00:29:54] I do a little EFT because something I found is I got a little older. Yes. I'm a little bit more anxious and I have adult onset ADHD. So if I complain with something in my hands, I can at least stay on task with what I'm doing. If I don't have something in my hands, then I like, Ooh, look a squirrel. So like the other day, I had a bunch of stuff going on and I have a whole bunch of fidget spinners, but they fell underneath the desk. Well,

[00:30:23] I didn't want to give them. Right. Cause that included me having to get on my hands and knees and get out of the desk. So I just found other stuff on my desk to play with. And I was able to get through my task, but like, I didn't know about any of those things until I started going to therapy. Right. Like what are different ways we can deal with, you know, everyday stuff that goes on. And it doesn't have to be like a major crisis or a depressive episode.

[00:30:51] It could just be something that really like sits with you wrong. And it's now nagging at you in the back of your head. And you're like, you don't know how to fix it. That's where your therapist can come in and like, help you figure out how to pull that out, put it to the side and figure out how we're going to work with that. Yeah. And that, that's what I love about therapy. Yeah. That's key. Cause there's, even if you don't know what it is, but you know, or you feel like something is wrong,

[00:31:19] it's worth speaking to somebody else about it. You don't always have to know like, Oh, it's depression or Oh, it's trauma. Or I think it's this, like if it's wrong and something is off, like you gotta go. And I also think like numbers like 988 are crucial, right? Because people maybe in that moment don't have the energy to go and find a therapist, pick up the phone and call 988. It's free. It's anonymous. And you don't have to be in a,

[00:31:49] like a suicidal moment. It's a crisis center. Or you can go out to like the help hub.co. They have a ton of different crisis lines out there that you can find that maybe that's kind of what you're dealing with. Right. And you're not quite sure where to turn, but giving the crisis numbers a call is a first start. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's so interesting that, you know, to listen to you guys talk about it because I don't know,

[00:32:19] I, I've steeped in it, you know, that I live this world. And so I don't remember what it was like to not be a therapist and not, I'll think about this stuff all the time. I read psychologists, psychology books for fun, for crying out loud. I'm just a geek, absolute nerd about this stuff, but I love listening to you guys talk about it as, you know, people who experience therapy and aren't therapists, because your insights are so important for people to hear who are sitting out there right now thinking, well, that's fine for them.

[00:32:49] You know, that's fine for them. They, they, they are different than me. They believed in themselves more. They had something that I didn't have. And just knowing that that's not true. First of all, that you are as vulnerable as, and is in pain as anyone out there. And there were times where you didn't ask for help and you suffered alone and isolated. And then there were times when you did, and sometimes it worked out great. Sometimes there was challenges. Sometimes you had to move on to a different therapist.

[00:33:16] Sometimes there was just hard days that you had to fight like hell to get through. And just to recognize that you're, you too sit. And yes, it's been a journey, right? But the therapy is that constant, that's constant support for you to just say, it's here. It's always here. It's always available. It's always something you can lean into and use to, you know, if you had a broken leg,

[00:33:45] we put a cast on it. If you had a deep infection, we'd give you antibiotics. It's, it's that sort of treatment. It's just, you can't see it. And so I think that's where people can't quite wrap their heads around it as much, but it is that critical treatment. It is the antibiotic for your, for your pain. And I love when I'm, when people are pro therapy, because I just honestly don't know why you wouldn't be. Why wouldn't you want to live in the most inside your head, the most peaceful ways possible.

[00:34:15] And to try to work toward that. Right. It's not always possible. I still have my moments. Like you said, you're better than you've ever been. Like that's a result of the work that you have done on yourself. And therapy is one of those parts. I'm sure you chose to walk into that, to work on yourself.

[00:34:45] Yeah. Yeah. I, for sure, because I was tired of feeling the way that I was feeling. And, you know, I'm thankful. I made that call. I, I'm not thankful for what led to that, but I'm thankful. I made the call and I'm thankful to be here. And I, you know, one thing I can say for like the state of New York is that I've seen more mention of 988. Right. There are actually commercials that are out on like national news channels. That makes me happy.

[00:35:16] Right. And people also need to know that like most therapists will work with you on a sliding scale based on your income and that there are free options out there because a lot of people don't have insurance. They don't have, you know, never ending funds for therapy, but there are resources out there for you that allow you to get that therapist, right? Like get your foot in the door. And even if you only see your therapist, maybe once a month,

[00:35:46] it's still better than not going to see a therapist in one. Because if without seeing the therapist, you're not working on that crap and the voices that are like your own voice of telling you what a piece of shit you are every day when you're not really a piece of shit, but you just don't know how to get out of feeling that way. Yeah. I am forever thankful for my therapist. You know, and I'll probably see my therapist for the rest of my life. So.

[00:36:16] You know, that, that, that, um, that thing that you say to yourself when you're, you're thinking about doing something you pretty much know would be helpful, but you come up with all the reasons why it won't work before you try anything. You know, like we all do not. Um, I always tell my poor brother-in-law, he probably won't hear this, so I can talk about him. Um, we were living in London, England, and my brother, my husband was bothering his, you know, wanting his brother to come visit. And his brother kept saying, yeah, yeah, we're going to get to it, going to get to it.

[00:36:45] And then they were talking on the phone one day and my brother-in-law said, yeah, I just heard it takes a really long time to get a passport. My husband said, well, you know what takes longer is when you don't put in the paperwork. He hadn't even applied to get a passport, but was already complaining about how long it was going to take. That's the, to me, that's the epitome of what we do in our heads sometimes when we kind of see what we think would be helpful to try,

[00:37:14] but we make up all these reasons in our heads why it won't. It's too expensive. I don't have enough time. Probably wouldn't like the person anyway. All these blah, blah, blah. And what you just said, it's like there is availability. It might take you a while. You may have to start and stop. You may have to keep looking, but there is, it's out there. It's a hundred percent out there. And so when you sit alone and you're in your pain,

[00:37:41] don't add on to that by predicting that it would fail before you've even started, you know? And I think that's a result of our lives. And what's happened to us is that we don't have faith in the process because we don't have faith in ourselves. And so just taking the enough of a step forward to then start circling the wagon, because of support for yourself so that other people can help prop you up and hold you up. Why is you figure this out? It's it,

[00:38:11] but that's a big faith step, isn't it? That first phone call for therapy. That's a big faith step. That's like, okay, here we go. Yeah. I think it's worth it though. Because otherwise, I mean, nothing changes. And I think if you're to a point where it's, it's dark and it's scary and you don't know that you can make it out of it,

[00:38:37] it's worth taking that step to even try, just see what it's like. Just try it. Yeah. Because nothing will change if you don't, you know? No, because, you know, if we could do this by ourselves, we would like, we're all smart, bad-ass chicks, right? We're smart. If, if we could use our brains to stop it, we would have like, nobody wants to live in pain. Nobody wants to be sad. Nobody wants to be hurting. Nobody wants to be anxious.

[00:39:05] And people come to me and that's the first thing they say is I've been trying, you know, I got these books and I'm trying. And to ask them what they've been doing. And it's usually they're using their intellect. They're trying to think it. And it doesn't work. It's not coming from your intellect. And the process of, of the pain, it sits out of our awareness. It's like our, the way we talk to ourselves of until you bring it forward, excuse me,

[00:39:34] until you really start thinking about it. Until your therapist says, tell me what you say to yourself when blah happens and you realize you called yourself a piece of shit 22,000 times today. Then you start to clue into the fact of why your behavior is the way it is, because who can, who can be hopeful and excited and living their best life when they've got something sitting on their shoulders, telling them they're a fuck up every day, like multiple times a day. So the action,

[00:40:03] the behavior is coming from that self-talk. And most people can't hear the self-talk themselves until they get directed to it. Start paying attention to those thousands, millions of thoughts that go on in your head that are a lot of times that, you know, we know our mind is negatively biased. It's supposed to protect us. But what it does is it pulls out the file cabinet and says, Oh, Bonnie, the last time this happened, you really screwed it up. Let me remind you.

[00:40:31] You're going to have the file folder that tells me how terrible I am about this and that here comes out. You know, it's like you're in a court of law and it's, here's all the evidence. Here it is. And you're usually, you want to know how bad you are? Let me remind you. Ooh, remember that thing you did in 10th grade when you embarrassed yourself? Exactly. It's like right before you're trying to fall asleep too, isn't it? It's like, Oh, you're relaxing. Guess what? You can feel it in your heart. Like it was yesterday. Yes. 10th grade. I'm a hundred thousand years old.

[00:41:00] That's like such a long time ago. Yeah. That's what our brain likes to do for us. So therapists hopefully try to help you catch that. Notice that. Be like, shut up. That isn't even relevant anymore. You know, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that now. I always do this thing when I fall asleep because that's when, you know, flood of all the things I've done wrong. I just say, you know what? You can berate yourself in the morning, not tonight. And then, you know what? In the morning, I don't feel like it.

[00:41:30] Because I got energy and I've slept. I want to do it at night. Why does our mind want to help us at night with that crap? It's just because you relax, you stop distracting yourself. You put the phone down, you turn off the TV, you stop doing all the things that keep you from thinking. Yeah. And then flood. And so we have to get a handle on that. We have to control that. And we can. We know now the brain is phenomenally good.

[00:42:01] At regenerating itself. It says, you don't want to think those thoughts anymore. That's fine. Let's think some new wonderful thoughts. It doesn't care. It just stays in the habit that you create for it. So we know we can create new neural pathways. We know we can create, create positive habits. We know that's all possible, but it takes work. You guys know this persistent, consistent work. It doesn't happen overnight. Because I'm 62. I've been thinking some pretty good negative thoughts for quite some time. Those are deeply grooved in my brain.

[00:42:30] The happy, I'm great, I'm amazing thoughts, not as deep. You know, that's a little harder to go to. I have to manually switch myself there still. So that's what you, you want to keep building that so that you can eventually stop, you know, just lessen the negative and increase the positive. Because why not? Yeah. Literally. Right? Yeah. No love. Yeah. This was such a great and important conversation.

[00:43:01] Especially for, you know, just for everything that's going on. Yeah. Like, you are wanted, you're needed, like, pick up the phone, go on your computer, whatever, find a therapist. There's a bazillion of them out there. Believe me, I know. There's three of them. All right. So we got some questions for you. Oh, shoot. These are like the infamous questions. I think we're going to have to switch for like the next season or something. Okay.

[00:43:30] If you could travel back in time to a younger version of yourself and give that younger version of yourself a bit of advice, what would you tell yourself and how old are you when you go back in time? Oh boy, you guys are good. Wow. I love that question and I know exactly where I'm going. Like, that's an incredible question. I've never been asked that. Six years old.

[00:43:59] I heard my parents having yet, you know, one of the never-ending arguments in the house. I was in bed. I'm second to youngest and there's eight kids. So I'm little, you know, six years old. There's a lot of older people in the house. They're having some sort of argument in the kitchen. My dad's throwing and breaking things. And then I hear him leave. I hear him slam the door and I hear the gravel of the truck like spin.

[00:44:28] And so I know for a small period of time, I'm safe because he's gone. And I, in my little cotton nightgown, crawl out of bed and instead of hiding like you usually do when this was going on, I found myself going to my mother and she was sitting at the kitchen table crying. The only light in the house, in the kitchen, was the stove light. I remember it was kind of dark and shadowy and I said, let's leave. My little six-year-old self knew at that moment

[00:44:57] the only way out of this is leaving. And, you know, wasn't a practical six-year-old. I didn't know what my mom with eight kids was going to go do. I didn't care. But I just knew he's gone, let's go. And of course we didn't. And she kind of let me know that that wasn't possible. But she also, in her pain, made me feel that that wasn't possible for us. That our kind of lot in life was already set

[00:45:27] because that's how she felt. And so, I would love to be there for her. That six-year-old shows up a lot in things when I'm scared or when I want to do something a little past my comfort zone. That six-year-old shows up and I hear that this is as good as you got here. You don't get any more. You don't deserve it. And I'd like to be there and tell her that that's just not true. That was my mother's journey. That was my mother's pain.

[00:45:56] That was my mother's choices in life. It was not mine. And I didn't have to believe that story. And I believed it for way too long. You know? Good question, ladies. Man. Yeah. I normally follow it up with what has been the hardest lesson you've learned in your life so far. I feel like

[00:46:25] I'm in like one of those wonderful talk shows where it's like deep and meaningful. Inside the actor's studio? Yeah. Yeah. Where are these questions came from? Yeah. Probably around, related to that, probably worth. Yeah. It's a sense of self-worth. A portable sense of self-worth that I can carry into situations. You talked about

[00:46:55] like putting the microphone in front of your face and like that moment of truth. I want to start a podcast. I want to start a podcast. I'm a therapist. I have private practice. Therapists by nature, I think, are kind of introverts. We're the ones listening in the back of the room. We're not looking to be at the front of the stage. And so, the first day I pulled this thing in front of my face I had only can imagine what was kind of a panic. Got it out of my face that I can't record today. I can't do this. Like, there was that moment of worth of who the hell would care

[00:47:24] what I had to say. Yeah. I really had to battle that. I really recognized that. And I actually talked with a friend of mine who's a coach about it and said, I can't, I keep procrastinating. I want to start it. I've got everything ready and I can't record. And she's the one that asked me. She's like, well, what do you say to yourself? Don't use my own words against me. And then I realized it was like, who the hell are you? What do you, you don't have anything to say.

[00:47:54] Nobody would bother. It still shows up all the time. I'm still so surprised when people listen to me. It's still like, when people say, that was really good. I'm like, oh really? Like, it's still. That's the thing though. It doesn't go away, does it? But it's the tools. It's the tools that you use to help yourself with it when you're hearing it. I know it's not true, but it still comes. Yeah. I laugh about what you said

[00:48:24] about people listening to your podcast. You know what? We ask ourselves the same question every time. Every time. Every time the new release comes out. Okay. I have two. It's two, two part questions. Okay. First part is, what is your favorite word? What is my favorite word? You know, I've seen these kind of questions on things and I've never thought for myself. What's my favorite word?

[00:49:03] Now I'm thinking too much. Should just go with what comes. I think it's, I wanted to say something like peace. Like there's, yeah, peace. That's what it is. Yeah. I love that. And what's your least favorite word? Oh, my face changes. My least favorite word is

[00:49:33] should because it's got all that judgment with it. Very good. All right. Now here's our next set of questions. What does, what does Bonnie do for self-love and self-care? Um, yeah. Um, Bonnie, me, I, there are things that bring me my nervous system down that help quiet my mind because that's the

[00:50:03] thing for me. My mind just, whoo, so active. Um, the number one thing I love to do and I let go at times of busy schedules, I love to read. Reading has always been, sometimes escape, but also it's just a source of such joy. I am, I am, I read, like I used to read all the time, like I always had a book and I still read a lot but not as much for some reason. I think the telephone

[00:50:32] got in the way of that. Um, so I've been making a conscious effort to put the phone down and it also really makes me happy before I, before I go to sleep because it just, I can honestly hear my heartbeats slowing as I read. It doesn't matter what I'm reading. So I read, I love to, um, I love music. Ooh, music. Just, my husband and I bonded on this. There's a song, it reminds a flood

[00:51:02] of memories. I go back to when I first heard it or it reminds me of a moment and even if it's a negative experience from the song, like the year that I ran away from home was, uh, the year that Fleetwood Mac put out rumors forever one of my favorite albums which will age me but whatever. and so there are songs on that album when I hear that song it just like immediately takes me to that place and it's a place of comfort to know that, you know, where you've come from,

[00:51:32] what you've done. So reading and music and, um, I really like hanging with my husband like we get along really well and, uh, I love laughing with him. Um, that is a really nice thing to do. We like to travel and we have very similar kind of styles. We don't move very fast in the morning and we stay up later than we should and we have that kind of thing in common. So I make sure that I spend time with people, friends, and,

[00:52:02] um, but also when I need to isolate and curl up in my bed with a good book, I do it and I realized I was kind of getting away from it so I'm back to it more this year and I feel better than ever with that. Yay! That's awesome. So, Bonnie, where can people listen to you, find you, all the nine yards? Yeah, I'm pretty much everywhere. It's hard to miss me. Dr. Bonnie Wims,

[00:52:32] Bonnie Wims, I think on Instagram I'm drbonniewims with one M, everybody wants to put two. Um, my website, uh, my website has pretty much everything there. Um, my podcast is on there. My blog is on there. I put out a blog every other week. I also, you can subscribe to my newsletter that comes out the opposite every other week and in that newsletter I just try to give some tips and helpful hints around what's going on and how people can kind of help themselves

[00:53:01] and links to my podcast where I talk to people who've gone through things or I talk to people who are helping people who've gone through things and understand therapy and all the social media places, you know, I'm hanging out, just my name. You can find me quite easily, I think. I love this. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This was amazing. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing. Thank you. Hi, all. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I'm G-Rex and I'm Dirty Skittles.

[00:53:31] Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. We'd love It's okay to be not okay. Just make sure you're talking to someone.